[hdtvmaniac]

Is there any DVD title, like AVIA, for calibrating a DLP Projector? I have the Sharp XVZ-10000, by the way.


The AVIA Home Theater DVD I have seems outdated, since it refers pretty much to CRT displays and not DLP.


Also is there a way to do a greyscale calibration on the Sharp XVZ-10000?

 

[TomHuffman]

The only siginficant difference between the test patterns required for a digital PJ, like DLP, and a CRT is the contrast test. For CRTs you test for blooming. Blooming doesn't appear on digital PJs, so you have to test for thresholding. The Avia disc explains all of this and provides patterns for both. The rest of the patterns: brightness, saturation, hue, sharpness, color decoding, overscan, and gray scale are exactly the same.

 

[Mark_H]

For a digital PJ I would recommend looking at the Digital Video Essentials titles... they have test patterns geared towards getting the best out of a digital projector. AVIA is still a great title (and I prefer it to DVE overall, but then I use CRT), and AVIA Pro (which I prefer to them all!) certainly could be used to do digitals.


Mark

 

[ChrisWiggles]

Guys!


Test patterns are test patterns. People have this mistaken conclusion that Avia is "outdated" because the explanations on how to use the patterns are geared more towards CRT. You can use the same patterns to calibrate digitals, you are just observing for different behaviors in the display. Avia and DVE are still my recommendation, aside from Avia PRO and DVE PRO.

 

[guitarman]

I found DVE to be a nightmare to move around in. Avia is much simplier.

 

[Mark_H]

Wiggles,


If I were recommending a test disc to a digital user on a budget I would recommend DVE - a CRT user on a budget I would recommend AVIA. With no budget I would recommend AVIA Pro.


Mark.

 

[ChrisWiggles]

Quote:

If I were recommending a test disc to a digital user on a budget I would recommend DVE - a CRT user on a budget I would recommend AVIA.

Then your advice would be misleading. The difference between the two is only certain specific pattern features, I prefer the animated Avia patterns. The technical difference, not minimal, is that Avia is limited to 16-235 while DVE has material outside these bounds which may be necessary for testing certain things like BTB. Each disc is perfecly well suited for any display technology.

 

[azjetski]

hdtvmaniac have you ever tried the SharpVision Manager software that you got with you Projector? I got it with the 10000 that I used to have but never used it.


Dale

 

[Mark_H]

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles Then your advice would be misleading.

I disagree.

Quote:

The difference between the two is only certain specific pattern features

And it is precisely these differences which make DVE more useful for calibrating/testing digital displays. Of course, everybody has their preference for test patterns when calibrating and overall I also prefer AVIA (and in particular AVIA Pro).

Quote:

I prefer the animated Avia patterns. The technical difference, not minimal, is that Avia is limited to 16-235 while DVE has material outside these bounds which may be necessary for testing certain things like BTB. Each disc is perfecly well suited for any display technology.

The original user asked for a recommendation for digital calibration. I stand by my recommendation. As you point out, AVIA doesn't do blacker-then-black or whiter-than-white and some of it's grey/colour fields are known to off-spec...


Mark

 

[BobL]

Being a calibrator I've used them all. Here is a quick synopsis.


Sound & Vision Home Theater Tune up (AVIA Jr) - Easiest to use! Least expensive and more than the average user needs. It corrected the color problems with AVIA, uses the animated patterns and has a few patterns from AVIA Pro. This disc is often overlooked and shouldn't be. Although, it doesn't have enough window patterns to check all the IRE's it does have enough to do a good gray scale quickly.


DVE - Has a lot of nice patterns as mentioned especially for digital displays. Navigation is not easy and the layout is confusing. Good video test material and good explanations. Might be a little technical for some. Not a bad disc for the price.


AVIA - Easy navigation similar to AVIA Jr just a little dated but still better than DVE. Has a nice selection of patterns with good explanations of them. There is some color issues with it for doing grayscale and color. They are not off a lot. I never use it for grayscale but if I remember correctly it will shift slightly towards Magenta. I wouldn't recommend this disc. Too pricey for what it is. You can buy the other two for this price and have everything you need.


AVIA Pro - not recommended for the average user and definitely not worth the price for the average user. I do like the automation features for taking grayscale readings. Plenty of patterns for about every use imagineable. It is set up to work the way calibrators work and has grouping of patterns that help suit various display types. Still waiting for the audio portion of AVIA Pro. Was supposed to ship some time ago and those of us who bought early are still waiting to be upgraded.


DVE Pro - Nice gamma patterns and good sweep patterns. I like AVIA Pro more for grayscale. High Def discs are great for HTPC and WMV, although I also use Display Mate which has been out for a long time. If you have an HTPC for high def and have calibration equipment it would be worth getting. A user could use this as a cheap signal generator, especially with an ISF approved video card. Other than that this isn't worth the price for an average user.


Goldline 5.1 Audio Toolkit - OK it is not a video disc but I included it for you audiophiles as well. Not necessary for basic calibration settings but definitely worth it for more advaned tweekers.


In summary, without test equipment and I was only going to get 1 disc get S&V home theater tune up. DVE for more advanced tweakers, if you just want the basic calibrations stuff don't bother buying it. I wouldn't recommend AVIA buy S&V and DVE instead and it makes a nice compliment for the tweeker. Don't waste money on the other discs without equipment.


Hope this helps.


Bob

 

[Mark_H]

Bob, nice summary.


I am also waiting for the AVIA Pro audio disc... my last email to them requesting an updated ETA went unanswered...


Mark

 

[Bob Sorel]

Quote:

DVE Pro - Nice gamma patterns and good sweep patterns. I like AVIA Pro more for grayscale. High Def discs are great for HTPC and WMV, although I also use Display Mate which has been out for a long time. If you have an HTPC for high def and have calibration equipment it would be worth getting. A user could use this as a cheap signal generator, especially with an ISF approved video card. Other than that this isn't worth the price for an average user.

Hi Bob,


I am a total newbie to advanced calibration, as I just bought a GMB EyeOne Pro spectroradiometer and UMR's i1 Pro software. I will hopefully be profiling my first projector later today and have a few question, if you don't mind.


In reference to your above statement, if I don't own a generator (which I don't), how else would I calibrate an input for HDTV? I do have a few HTPCs here loaded with Nvidia Geforce 6600GT cards, so I think I have the right horsepower and hardware to use the DVE Pro HD patterns. BUT wouldn't any calibrations performed with those discs only be valid for HD material played from the PC? That is, I have a total of 5 HD sources (Dish 6000 - component, Dish 811 - DVI, MyHD - DVI, and 2 HTPCs - either DVI or RGB) and 2 projectors (InFocus 7210 and Optoma H-79), so how would I calibrate:


1. The HD component output of the Dish 6000 (it does not have DVI)?

2. The DVI output of the Dish 811?


Wouldn't the calibration that I perform using the DVE Pro WMV patterns through the PC only be applicable to HD playback through the PC? How would I calibrate the inputs on my projectors that are connected to the 2 Dish units?


Some more newbie questions:


1. I assume that analog inputs need to be calibrated to the individual source components, as they differ from one component to the next. Is this also true of DVI?

2. On any one projector input, does each signal resolution need to be calibrated individually (like 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i from an upscaling DVD player)?

3. I already own the basic versions of Avia and DVE. Do I have enough to get started? (This color issue with Avia has me concerned, as grayscale calibration is why I bought all of this stuff to begin with).

4. What patterns will I need? My assumption is that I will need IRE windows from 0 to 100 in 10 IRE increments, as well as the standard reverse gray ramps and pluge patterns. Any others?

5. I've seen people talking about taking measurements directly from the projector vs. reflected off the screen. Logically it seems to me that I would want to measure off the screen to take into account the effect of the screen, as it is those reflections that my eyes will see. Is this correct?


Sorry about all of the questions, but I figured "While you are here..."

 

[umr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Sorel Hi Bob, I am a total newbie to advanced calibration, as I just bought a GMB EyeOne Pro spectroradiometer and UMR's i1 Pro software. I will hopefully be profiling my first projector later today and have a few question, if you don't mind. In reference to your above statement, if I don't own a generator (which I don't), how else would I calibrate an input for HDTV? I do have a few HTPCs here loaded with Nvidia Geforce 6600GT cards, so I think I have the right horsepower and hardware to use the DVE Pro HD patterns. BUT wouldn't any calibrations performed with those discs only be valid for HD material played from the PC? That is, I have a total of 5 HD sources (Dish 6000 - component, Dish 811 - DVI, MyHD - DVI, and 2 HTPCs - either DVI or RGB) and 2 projectors (InFocus 7210 and Optoma H-79), so how would I calibrate: 1. The HD component output of the Dish 6000 (it does not have DVI)? 2. The DVI output of the Dish 811? Wouldn't the calibration that I perform using the DVE Pro WMV patterns through the PC only be applicable to HD playback through the PC? How would I calibrate the inputs on my projectors that are connected to the 2 Dish units? Some more newbie questions: 1. I assume that analog inputs need to be calibrated to the individual source components, as they differ from one component to the next. Is this also true of DVI? 2. On any one projector input, does each signal resolution need to be calibrated individually (like 480i, 480p, 720p, and 1080i from an upscaling DVD player)? 3. I already own the basic versions of Avia and DVE. Do I have enough to get started? (This color issue with Avia has me concerned, as grayscale calibration is why I bought all of this stuff to begin with). 4. What patterns will I need? My assumption is that I will need IRE windows from 0 to 100 in 10 IRE increments, as well as the standard reverse gray ramps and pluge patterns. Any others? 5. I've seen people talking about taking measurements directly from the projector vs. reflected off the screen. Logically it seems to me that I would want to measure off the screen to take into account the effect of the screen, as it is those reflections that my eyes will see. Is this correct? Sorry about all of the questions, but I figured "While you are here..."

I would consider the following in order of cost and increasing quality for dish...


1. For all Dish sources use the HDNet test pattern to set the colors and levels. You can also measure gray scale on those pattern. Unfortunately, unless you record them you may have trouble.

2. Acquire a JVC 30K D-VHS deck and a 720p version of DVE to act as a component source. These players are pretty close to correct on component and should be a reasonable source for HD.

3. Purchase an AccuPel HDG-3000 and some cables to generate test patterns.

4. Purchase an AccuPel HDG-3000 and an 8VSB HDTV modulator that will work with your boxes.



Your other questions...


1. Analog sources do tend to vary in input level. +-10 percent is not uncommon for consumer electronics. DVI tends to be more standard, but the PC and Video standards are different and some devices will clip the signals incorrectly.

2. Yes each one should be either calibrated or verified individually. A HTPC is not a good way to do this unless that is the source you will be using or the connection is VGA.

3. Yes you have enough. Here are some more if you want them for your PC http://www.vesa.org/public/Fpdm2/

4. Color bars, sharpness, geometry patterns, chroma and luma frequency sweeps.

5. Your software will calculate the screen offset to allow you to work off the projector output if you would like. You can also measure off the screen, but you will be more limited to how low a light level you can go.

 

[Mark_H]

The Eye One cannot read direct from a projector, or at least a CRT, right? Mine certainly won't. I read reflected light from the screen when calibrating...


Mark

 

[umr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark_H The Eye One cannot read direct from a projector, or at least a CRT, right? Mine certainly won't. I read reflected light from the screen when calibrating... Mark

It does when you use the ambient light head and ambient mode calibration supplied by GretagMacbeth. I have done it many times. Milori has not provided this feature with the Eye-One Monitor version they supply. The Eye-One Pro is required.

 

[Mark_H]

Quote:

Originally Posted by umr It does when you use the ambient light head and ambient mode calibration supplied by GretagMacbeth. I have done it many times.

Thanks, I'll shall do some digging for these items.


Mark

 

[umr]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark_H Thanks, I'll shall do some digging for these items. Mark

You should PM Ken Land. He has Colorfacts and my software and has seen an Eye-One Pro in action on his projector with an ambient head.

 

[Bob Sorel]

Hi Jeff!


I was really trying to give you a rest, as you have already spent waaay too much time answering questions for me!


But I'll continue to ask anyway (feel free to drop out when you've had enough ):

Quote:

1. For all Dish sources use the HDNet test pattern to set the colors and levels. You can also measure gray scale on those pattern. Unfortunately, unless you record them you may have trouble.

I've already recorded the HDNet test patterns and a friend of mine recorded the InHD TuneUp patterns for me, but they would be output from the PC. How will that help in calibrating my Dish source?


Of the other options you listed, I would probably opt for buying an Accupel generator and the corresponding module for your software, but that would almost triple my initial investment. I am just doing this for myself and friends as a hobby, so I think I'll hold off for now.

Quote:

1. Analog sources do tend to vary in input level. +-10 percent is not uncommon for consumer electronics. DVI tends to be more standard, but the PC and Video standards are different and some devices will clip the signals incorrectly.

I've very carefully set up my PC's DVD software to output levels of 16,16,16 for black and 235,235,235 for white, so can I safely assume that a hardware DVD player would output the exact same levels, or should I measure and calibrate them independently?

Quote:

5. Your software will calculate the screen offset to allow you to work off the projector output if you would like. You can also measure off the screen, but you will be more limited to how low a light level you can go.

I can do either, as I have a tripod. Which method is preferable? My concern here is that my Firehawk may have a grayscale of its own (I don't know if this is correct...just an assumption) and that I would want to calibrate the sum of the interaction of my projector's grayscale and screen's grayscale combined. Am I just overthinking this thing?

 

[Bob Sorel]

Quote:

The Eye One cannot read direct from a projector, or at least a CRT, right? Mine certainly won't. I read reflected light from the screen when calibrating...

Hi Mark,


I just bought the EyeOne Pro (the Beamer model specifically), and it came with all of the necessary attachments, diffuser, scan target, and case to work with just about any kind of projector, including CRT. You can buy the components directly from GMB assuming that your model will work with the diffuser or "ambient light measuring head" as GMB labels it...


BTW, like I said, I am a complete newb with this, and after doing a fair amount of research, I decided that not only was the EyeOne Pro the easiest to use and most accurate device available for a reasonable cost, but UMR's i1 Pro software is incredibly powerful and easy to use as well. Even though I am yet to profile my first projector, I have played around with the hardware/software enough to feel very comfortable with it. i1 Pro basically walks you through the entire procedure, eliminating the need to think too much... Yet is is powerful enough for the advanced users who really want to get serious with low light level measurements. Between the Beamer and i1 Pro software I spent considerably less than $1k, making it the best bargain of all of the professional packages I've looked at.


The hardware and software work great! It's just me that needs some more tweaking...

 

[Mark_H]

Hey Bob,


This ambient light thingy is new and wasn't available when I purchased my Beamer with ColorFacts a couple of years back. I've been busily searching but so far haven't found a retailer who sells the attachment so I've emailed GMB for advise on how to get one.


In my system I can read down to about 25 IRE with complete accuracy. After that my readings are no longer reliable, so being able to read direct from the projector at this point would be very useful indeed (although I would continue to read from the screen reflection up to that point).


Good luck with your first profile And make sure you right down all your settings before you start to change things


Mark