[ZKACAL]


When calibrating a TV or monitor with a calibration disk inserted in a Blu-Ray player, which preset picture mode should the player be set to? I have an LG Blu-Ray so should I leave it on standard or set it to movie? Obviously, the TV's picture mode should be set to Movie/Cinema, but I am supposed to tweak the Blu-Ray player as well? I guess this is why pattern generators are more convenient. 

 

I am using CalMan 5 and SpectraCal C3 meter in conjunction with my Blu-Ray player via HDMI input for displaying the test patterns.

 

[Otto Pylot]

I answered you above but no, you should not have any processing going on at all in your blu-ray player when calibrating. You want to calibrate your panel against known standards without those standards being pre-processed in any way shape or manner.

 

[ZKACAL]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot  /t/1518101/calibration-via-blu-ray#post_24365674


I answered you above but no, you should not have any processing going on at all in your blu-ray player when calibrating. You want to calibrate your panel against known standards without those standards being pre-processed in any way shape or manner.

Would setting the noise reduction to -3 (the lowest setting) on my blu-ray do the trick in your opinion? Or should I leave it at the default 0 when calibrating?

 

[ConnecTEDDD]



Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKACAL  /t/1518101/calibration-via-blu-ray#post_24373440

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto Pylot  /t/1518101/calibration-via-blu-ray#post_24365674


I answered you above but no, you should not have any processing going on at all in your blu-ray player when calibrating. You want to calibrate your panel against known standards without those standards being pre-processed in any way shape or manner.

Would setting the noise reduction to -3 (the lowest setting) on my blu-ray do the trick in your opinion? Or should I leave it at the default 0 when calibrating?

Hello, before starting the measurements set your sharpness control of you display by displaying a reference Sharpness Pattern from your source you are using.


Sharpness is added to your signal from your whole video chain and we minimizing it using the Display Internal Controls.


The noise reductions will not improve anything the time you will take the measurements because you will measure solid window or full field patterns, so there no noise to reduce, since that colored patches are solid colored.

 

[ZKACAL]



Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD  /t/1518101/calibration-via-blu-ray#post_24383496



Hello, before starting the measurements set your sharpness control of you display by displaying a reference Sharpness Pattern from your source you are using.


Sharpness is added to your signal from your whole video chain and we minimizing it using the Display Internal Controls.


The noise reductions will not improve anything the time you will take the measurements because you will measure solid window or full field patterns, so there no noise to reduce, since that colored patches are solid colored.

That makes sense. So after calibration, I should make the blu-rays noise reduction off for watching movies.

 

[ConnecTEDDD]



Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKACAL  /t/1518101/calibration-via-blu-ray#post_24396444

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConnecTEDDD  /t/1518101/calibration-via-blu-ray#post_24383496


Hello, before starting the measurements set your sharpness control of you display by displaying a reference Sharpness Pattern from your source you are using.



Sharpness is added to your signal from your whole video chain and we minimizing it using the Display Internal Controls.



The noise reductions will not improve anything the time you will take the measurements because you will measure solid window or full field patterns, so there no noise to reduce, since that colored patches are solid colored.

That makes sense. So after calibration, I should make the blu-rays noise reduction off for watching movies.

Hello, don't use any Noise/Mosquito Noise/3D Noise etc. from your source, it's not required and will degrade your picture. Use only sharpeness from your display.

 

[ZKACAL]


I understand what you are saying. But what I meant was after properly calibrating the display (including the correct sharpness level), you should turn off the noise reduction from the blu-ray player so it won't degrade picture quality while watching movies.

 

[Doug Blackburn]

The problem you have is that you do not know which mode of the Blu-ray player is the most accurate mode.... if you had a video test pattern generator that is used to calibrate your TV, after the TV is calibrated, you could put a disc in the LG Blu-ray player and used the Blu-ray setup disc to measure the 2 modes in the Blu-ray player to find out which mode is more accurate. The name of the mode will not usually tell you whether it is an accurate mode or inaccurate mode. You cannot also assume that Movie or Cinema mode is the most accurate mode in a TV or projector. There might be a THX mode that is more accurate, or a Neutral mode that is more accurate, or some other mode with some other name. Or you might find out that the most accurate mode turns out to be a problem because there are problems you cannot fix with the calibration controls you have available in that mode... so you may find that using a LESS accurate mode is better because the calibration controls available in that less accurate mode allow you to get more accurate final results.


This sort of stuff is why calibration is not for everybody. There are WAY TOO MANY people trying to make calibration sound much less complicated than it really is. If you happen to be lucky, you might have a TV that's easy to calibrate and a disc player that is accurate and has no modes or controls that will make the disc player inaccurate... that's a pretty easy scenario for calibrating. But it is not a TYPICAL scenario for calibrating. I'd say maybe 5% to 10% of people who get into calibrating their own gear have a system that's relatively easy to calibrate. The other 90-95% of people/systems have 1 more more (usually more) problems from moderate to severe... and those problems may not be noticed by novice calibrators. Or if they are noticed, the novice calibrator doesn't know what to do about the problem(s) nor how to go about figuring out if there is a way around the problems.

 

[ZKACAL]


I understand what you mean. Professionals should always use pattern generators when calibrating displays so they don't have to deal with any outside processing going on. In my case, I am using my LG blu-ray player in the User picture mode because it is the only mode that allows me to turn off noise reduction. User mode also allows me to change brightness, contrast, color, tint, and sharpness, but I am leaving those at their default values (ranges from -3 to 3; 0 being default).

 

My blu-ray player also has more settings in it's home menu. I have set them to 16:9 original, YCbCr, 24Hz, and 1080p. I have left audio settings at default as I am more concerned with picture first.

 

And my TV's most accurate preset picture mode is Cinema. It's a Panasonic tc p50s60. It does not have a THX or ISF setting and it's not capable of doing a 10pt greyscale adjustment either. It does have CMS however. 

 

I have calibrated it with CalMAN 5 Tutorial and got pretty good results. I just need to buy S&M HD Benchmark because they have an easier sharpness pattern to deal with. But for my other TVs that have backlight settings, I need to upgrade my CalMAN software so I can read the Y Max value on 100% grey. This will allow me to adjust the backlight so that it will read between 30-40 fL. 

 

[Doug Blackburn]

Backlight isn't the only control you adjust to get your 30-40 fL for a dark room. The Contrast control is also involved. You actually have to measure the display at low and medium backlight settings to see if low settings produce non-linerities from colors not staying in proportion to each other at low levels.


You want the lowest possible backlight setting to get the best black levels the TV can do. But many TVs will be too dim when using the lowest backlight setting and raising Contrast to try to make images hit the 30-40 fL range. So if you only get 20 f:L for the lowest backlight and highest Contrast, you may have to raise Backlight to get where you want to be. Or you may find that high Contrast settings cause problems and you may have to limit your Contrast settings to no more than 70 (or some other arbitrary number). And that could be a determining factor as to where Backlight has to be set. But there are no special test patterns that help you with this. You just have to go with your grayscale and color/CMS patterns and check different backlight and Contrast settings until you find a combination that gives the best possible black level while not causing problems at higher-luminance levels.

 

[ZKACAL]


That's funny because in "Home Theater Geeks 175", Scott Wilkinson and Robert Heron said adjusting the backlight doesn't effect brightness or contrast. 

 

[ZKACAL]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn  /t/1518101/calibration-via-blu-ray#post_24403893


Backlight isn't the only control you adjust to get your 30-40 fL for a dark room. The Contrast control is also involved. You actually have to measure the display at low and medium backlight settings to see if low settings produce non-linerities from colors not staying in proportion to each other at low levels.


You want the lowest possible backlight setting to get the best black levels the TV can do. But many TVs will be too dim when using the lowest backlight setting and raising Contrast to try to make images hit the 30-40 fL range. So if you only get 20 f:L for the lowest backlight and highest Contrast, you may have to raise Backlight to get where you want to be. Or you may find that high Contrast settings cause problems and you may have to limit your Contrast settings to no more than 70 (or some other arbitrary number). And that could be a determining factor as to where Backlight has to be set. But there are no special test patterns that help you with this. You just have to go with your grayscale and color/CMS patterns and check different backlight and Contrast settings until you find a combination that gives the best possible black level while not causing problems at higher-luminance levels.

I see what you mean. So generally when is the best time to adjust backlight in the calibration process? Before you do grayscale or after or what?

 

[hungro]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Blackburn  /t/1518101/calibration-via-blu-ray#post_24400292


The problem you have is that you do not know which mode of the Blu-ray player is the most accurate mode.... if you had a video test pattern generator that is used to calibrate your TV, after the TV is calibrated, you could put a disc in the LG Blu-ray player and used the Blu-ray setup disc to measure the 2 modes in the Blu-ray player to find out which mode is more accurate. The name of the mode will not usually tell you whether it is an accurate mode or inaccurate mode. You cannot also assume that Movie or Cinema mode is the most accurate mode in a TV or projector. There might be a THX mode that is more accurate, or a Neutral mode that is more accurate, or some other mode with some other name. Or you might find out that the most accurate mode turns out to be a problem because there are problems you cannot fix with the calibration controls you have available in that mode... so you may find that using a LESS accurate mode is better because the calibration controls available in that less accurate mode allow you to get more accurate final results.


This sort of stuff is why calibration is not for everybody. There are WAY TOO MANY people trying to make calibration sound much less complicated than it really is. If you happen to be lucky, you might have a TV that's easy to calibrate and a disc player that is accurate and has no modes or controls that will make the disc player inaccurate... that's a pretty easy scenario for calibrating. But it is not a TYPICAL scenario for calibrating. I'd say maybe 5% to 10% of people who get into calibrating their own gear have a system that's relatively easy to calibrate. The other 90-95% of people/systems have 1 more more (usually more) problems from moderate to severe... and those problems may not be noticed by novice calibrators. Or if they are noticed, the novice calibrator doesn't know what to do about the problem(s) nor how to go about figuring out if there is a way around the problems.

This balancing act or knowing what contols give you what combination of results the "art" if you will of calibration. The ST60 has problems where it pushes down too much red in the near blacks of a black clipping pattern if you use the cut's of the 2pt too much. It is said to better leave this control aloneor try warm 1 color temp to start with instead of warm 2. Do the 2pt high end and move on to the 10pt. As always when you are done you can verify the results by looking at content. Casino Royale has scenes that you can check to see how you did in the the whole process. There might be issues that are in the picture but you get a perfect or near perfect looking chart but real world video is off.

 

[ZKACAL]


I figured out how to properly adjust backlight. You pretty much have to recheck brightness/contrast as well as grayscale/gamma every time you make a change. It's annoying but it works.

 

so first brightness/contrast, then backlight, then brightness/contrast, then 2 pt/10 pt, then brightness/contrast, then backlight, then brightness/contrast, then 2 pt/10 pt, and keep on going till everything is where you want it. 

 

I aim for 40 fL

 

[ZKACAL]



Quote:
Originally Posted by hungro  /t/1518101/calibration-via-blu-ray#post_24476437



This balancing act or knowing what contols give you what combination of results the "art" if you will of calibration. The ST60 has problems where it pushes down too much red in the near blacks of a black clipping pattern if you use the cut's of the 2pt too much. It is said to better leave this control aloneor try warm 1 color temp to start with instead of warm 2. Do the 2pt high end and move on to the 10pt. As always when you are done you can verify the results by looking at content. Casino Royale has scenes that you can check to see how you did in the the whole process. There might be issues that are in the picture but you get a perfect or near perfect looking chart but real world video is off.

My S60 has too much red in the deep blacks but too much blue in the bright whites. Nothing I can do about it with only a 2 pt, but gamma is exactly 2.2 and the colors are superb after doing CMS.

 

[PlasmaPZ80U]



Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKACAL  /t/1518101/calibration-via-blu-ray#post_24488677


My S60 has too much red in the deep blacks but too much blue in the bright whites. Nothing I can do about it with only a 2 pt, but gamma is exactly 2.2 and the colors are superb after doing CMS.

be careful with the low end grayscale controls on the s60... too large of a correction will tint the levels just above black red. When I had the S60 I only used the high end controls and got great results.

 

[ZKACAL]



Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U  /t/1518101/calibration-via-blu-ray#post_24489353



be careful with the low end grayscale controls on the s60... too large of a correction will tint the levels just above black red. When I had the S60 I only used the high end controls and got great results.

Interesting. My grayscale adjustments were:

R High: -10

G: 0

B: 6

R Low: 11

G: 0

B: -14

 

I have calibrated this TV several times and have gotten similar results almost every time. My readings say that my 50% and 90% were slightly over dE 3 but everything else was fine. I had a 2.2 gamma with a 2.2 dE. But I think my C3 meter is not great for plasmas since the temperature keeps on fluctuating as I calibrate (I let my meter sit on the screen for 30 min to try to combat this). 

 

Still, I think the TV looks great.

 

[hungro]



Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U  /t/1518101/calibration-via-blu-ray#post_24489353


be careful with the low end grayscale controls on the s60... too large of a correction will tint the levels just above black red. When I had the S60 I only used the high end controls and got great results.

My ST60 exhibits this same behaviour. If I do a 80%/20% 2pt calibration then when I go to set my RCUT the meter says to increase this to +3 but near black will be tinted red, stripe 17 and even 18 on the black clipping pattern. I leave the cuts at default which is zero and just do the highend and go straight to the 10pt.

 

[hungro]



Quote:
Originally Posted by ZKACAL  /t/1518101/calibration-via-blu-ray#post_24489949


Interesting. My grayscale adjustments were:

R High: -10

G: 0

B: 6

R Low: 11

G: 0

B: -14


I have calibrated this TV several times and have gotten similar results almost every time. My readings say that my 50% and 90% were slightly over dE 3 but everything else was fine. I had a 2.2 gamma with a 2.2 dE. But I think my C3 meter is not great for plasmas since the temperature keeps on fluctuating as I calibrate (I let my meter sit on the screen for 30 min to try to combat this). 


Still, I think the TV looks great.

Since you only have a 2pt greyscale control this limits you from fine tweaking the inbetween steps. Try and do just your highend and leave the cuts at default to see if you can lessen this red to the near blacks. You could try adjusting the cuts at 10 % stimulus instead of 20 %. Example: Do 80%/10%, This might throw out your 20% grey but with only 2 control points you'll have to compromise. Have your shadow detail less red or live with the red tinted blacks. Which one bothers you the most pick one and go from there.

 

[ZKACAL]



Quote:
Originally Posted by hungro  /t/1518101/calibration-via-blu-ray#post_24495416



Since you only have a 2pt greyscale control this limits you from fine tweaking the inbetween steps. Try and do just your highend and leave the cuts at default to see if you can lessen this red to the near blacks. You could try adjusting the cuts at 10 % stimulus instead of 20 %. Example: Do 80%/10%, This might throw out your 20% grey but with only 2 control points you'll have to compromise. Have your shadow detail less red or live with the red tinted blacks. Which one bothers you the most pick one and go from there.

I will have to watch more content to see if it bothers me enough. But the ability to make these subtle changes in my opinion separates the novice and expert calibrators.

 

On my Samsung, the grayscale is perfect due to having a 10pt. On my Sony, the grayscale is nearly perfect despite only having a 2pt. It's just this Panasonic that is a bit erratic.