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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I am trying to figure out the easiest and least expensive solution for a client.


This is what we are working with:


Small Restaurant - 25x75ft

Would like 2 zones with 3 speakers and 1 sub in each zone


Current equipment on site QSC-CX602V amplifier and a Mackie 402-VLZ3, which is what the iPod attaches to.


Speakers will need to be replaced.


Thoughts?


D
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaport /forum/post/19616338


I am trying to figure out the easiest and least expensive solution for a client.


This is what we are working with:


Small Restaurant - 25x75ft

Would like 2 zones with 3 speakers and 1 sub in each zone


Current equipment on site QSC-CX602V amplifier and a Mackie 402-VLZ3, which is what the iPod attaches to.


Speakers will need to be replaced.


Thoughts?


D

Am I to understand that:


1) a client is paying you to design a sound system for their restaurant

2) you don't know how to do this

3) you thought you could get somebody else to engineer your job for free while you got paid for it

 

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Post #1 as well.


I'll take a stab;

If I were in your situation, I'd look at a simple two-way from Meyer. Either their Acheron, or their X-10, Would likely be a very good option for the room. They're self powered, turn key systems, and the sound everyone will enjoy. Good discounts for multiples. Additionally, they have matching LF units for the Acheron. The X-10, I'd go for Danley's Matterhorn for matching LF support. Just one Matterhorn sub will cover the entire room.


Welcome
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks Again for the Help FOH, I appreciate the input.


It should be an easy solution but the problem I am encountering is trying to find a way to incorporate 1 sub and 3 speakers into 2 separate zones, with 2 independent volume controls located 40 feet from the receiver/amplifier.


I fave many theories, but cost and ease of use become the variables.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne A. Pflughaupt /forum/post/19622949

I agree with Chris. But I will say, you probably don't want subs for a background music system. The patrons will find the low freq drone annoying.


Regards,

Wayne A. Pflughaupt

I'm glad you agree with me, but unfortunately I'm going to disagree with you..



At low volumes, bass really disappears, and actually one of my favorite thing about better background or musak systems is when subwoofers are added to supplement what are generally smaller speakers around a restaurant. Done properly, I think it adds significantly compared to the thin and tinny excuse for background music one generally hears in background systems.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by William
You can't use an iPod to play music in a public place like a restaurant. You must use a licensed music service.
Yep. If you play copyrighted music in any public performance (and a restaurant or bar certainly qualifies as a public performance), pretty soon you can expect representatives from BMI and ASCAP to show up demanding that you buy a license from them. If you refuse, their lawyers will hit you up for astronomical fines and fees, and most likely, they will win if pushed. The only sane solution is to capitulate and buy licenses from them to play music in public.


This is a huge trap for the unwary. It doesn't matter how large or small you are. BMI and ASCAP will find you if you play music in public and demand their fees. Pay them or face legal nightmares for the foreseeable future.


Simple but hardly comprehensive summary here:

http://entertainment.howstuffworks.c...licensing3.htm
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will2007 /forum/post/19624405


...The only sane solution is to capitulate and buy licenses from them to play music in public....BMI and ASCAP will find you if you play music in public and demand their fees. Pay them or face legal nightmares for the foreseeable future...

Another easy method is to just to sign up for something like SIRIUS/XM Music for Business . This has many advantages and is scalable to the number of customers. If a BMI or ASCP rep shows up (and they will since they scour business licenses flagging restaurants and bars first) you will pay through the nose to avoid ann expensive suit that you WILL loses.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by FOH /forum/post/19619277


Post #1 as well.


I'll take a stab;

If I were in your situation, I'd look at a simple two-way from Meyer. Either their Acheron, or their X-10, Would likely be a very good option for the room. They're self powered, turn key systems, and the sound everyone will enjoy. Good discounts for multiples. Additionally, they have matching LF units for the Acheron. The X-10, I'd go for Danley's Matterhorn for matching LF support. Just one Matterhorn sub will cover the entire room.


Welcome

I love these potential solutions. You don't need a sub with a Jehrico.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles /forum/post/19623405


I'm glad you agree with me, but unfortunately I'm going to disagree with you..



At low volumes, bass really disappears, and actually one of my favorite thing about better background or musak systems is when subwoofers are added to supplement what are generally smaller speakers around a restaurant. Done properly, I think it adds significantly compared to the thin and tinny excuse for background music one generally hears in background systems.
The issue is not bass disappearing at low volumes. That can easily be address with EQ. The problem with a restaurant, especially a large one, is that when the place fills up all the chatter becomes so dense it acts like white noise and masks the upper frequencies of the music (‘cause both are competing for the same sonic space), leaving nothing but the bass cutting through. Hence the “drone.” I’ve seen it happen. I suppose it could be pulled off if it’s all EQ’d properly, but who’s going to do that in a system like this?


Regards,

Wayne A. Pflughaupt
 

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I've managed many retail and restaurant constructions and have only seen 1 case where subwoofer was used (retail store). All restaurants I've seen during construction and visited (as patron) use smallish speakers for low level background music and paging. The bars that double as restaurant is a different story but it doesn't look like that's what OP is dealing with.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by William /forum/post/19624982


Another easy method is to just to sign up for something like SIRIUS/XM Music for Business . This has many advantages and is scalable to the number of customers. If a BMI or ASCP rep shows up (and they will since they scour business licenses flagging restaurants and bars first) you will pay through the nose to avoid ann expensive suit that you WILL loses.

That's an excellent suggestion. It appears to be a nice turn-key solution and already has the licensing fees to the music industry toughs built into the monthly subscription fees.


I hate that BMI and ASCAP can essentially run down well-meaning small business owners and shake them down for what amounts to protection money, but that's the reality of copyright protection and public performance licenses. Subscribing to Sirius for Business or Muzak or something similar takes the guess work out of it.
 

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I hate that BMI/ASCAP don't pass along that much to the actual artists, and that the MP3'ers philosophy seems to be that all music should be free for the taking (thus making the artists' contributions worthless). Disclaimer: I am quite biased since I have been a pro musician (though not now; too hard to make a living at it, imagine that -- it's a better hobby than vocation for me).


Just to be on-topic, I was trying to think when I helped installed subs in the hundreds of installs I did ages ago, and IIRC none of the background systems used them, only the systems for main acts.The LF drone/rumble effect was one reason; others included the difficulty of setting levels with various guest loads, cost, and size (place to put the subs; they all wanted more tables and chairs
).


FWIWFM - Don
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaport /forum/post/19616338


I am trying to figure out the easiest and least expensive solution for a client.


This is what we are working with:


Small Restaurant - 25x75ft

Would like 2 zones with 3 speakers and 1 sub in each zone


Current equipment on site QSC-CX602V amplifier and a Mackie 402-VLZ3, which is what the iPod attaches to.


Speakers will need to be replaced.


Thoughts?


D

The one thing that everybody is missing is, WHAT EXACTLY IS THIS TO BE USED FOR?


And by that I things like: how loud do you want it? Is this for background music? or a loud rock and roll bar type thing?


Is the sub to be deep throbbing pounding type sub-or just a general bass loudspeaker for background music?


Is sound quality important?


What exactly are the 2 zones? Are they both getting the same signal or different signals? Are there places you don't want the sound as loud-such as at the bar where drink orders are being placed?


Budget plays a BIG part. And does this "budget" include installation? Are you looking at the range of $100/loudspeaker or do you want better quality and are willing to pay a couple thousand per speaker? Or something in between?


What do you exaclty mean by "least expensive". You could go get a couple of $20 computer loudspeakers and that would be pretty cheap. But may not do the job you need it to. Without knowing what that job is-it is not even worth guessing at.


If you say you are looking for a cheap car and somebody says a particular 2 seater is great. But what if you need to carry 6 people around? Then that "tool" is totally the wrong thing. What if you need to go off road and somebody suggest a Smart car.
If you don't define your needed parameters, then you will get pretty worthless answers.


Have you actually looked into some of the suggestions? That were provided tongue in cheek. The Danley Matterhorn could probably physically tear the building apart. And probably costs over 100 times more than your budget might be. But it would give lots of solid bass down low



What are the real expectations?


What are the coverage patterns needed? How high up are the loudspeakers to be mounted?


In a PROPER design, there are lots of things that have to be considered. A lot more than what some people think on a forum is a "good" loudspeaker.


As a system "designer", you should already have the answers to all these questions.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaport /forum/post/19620495


Thanks Again for the Help FOH, I appreciate the input.


It should be an easy solution but the problem I am encountering is trying to find a way to incorporate 1 sub and 3 speakers into 2 separate zones, with 2 independent volume controls located 40 feet from the receiver/amplifier.


I fave many theories, but cost and ease of use become the variables.

First you have to define what exactly it is you want to control.


Just a single volume of a single zone from each control. Then use a RDL VCA.


Or if the system is a 70V, and the wattages fit the need, then just put in a 70V volume control.


If you need to do some fancy type stuff you could get a Biamp Audia or Nexia and use something like the VOlume Select 8's or for a more "IPOD" type volume control use the RED-1's. But budget might be an issue.


There are also lots of other options-but without knowing exactly what it is you want to do-it is only a guess as to what would work for you.
 

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I still think Meyer's X-10 for the tops, and a stealth install of Danley's Matterhorn.


My response sincerity a few days ago, was comensurate to the OPs posting sincerity. Calling all engineers,...please.
 
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