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Discussion Starter · #1 ·

Hi
I am having issues with calibrating my Samsung Plasma, using Calman 5 Basic.  Im experienced at calibrating, I've been using Calman since version 4, 
I am currently using the following setup:

• Calman 5 Basic ( 5.1.0) 
• i1 Display Pro Retail
• Samsung PN59D7000 59"
• AVS HD (Blu-ray) playing on a Samsung Blu-ray player

The basic issue is that every time I calibrate now, using calman 5...the results are incredibly green. 
I have run the calibration multiple times (4 since Friday) and each time I can see where it is going wrong. 
I have detailed the process below, there are not a lot of options I can customize on the basic package I have...I don't know If I need to profile my meter, or what

This is my process, let me know if you need additional info:
• I am using the 1913 color chart.

• Gamma is power 2.2.  
• Hd709 65
• Delta e 2000
• Set to plasma
• Calman widowed patterns ( But last night I tried APL )

I reset the picture mode...I run an advanced calibration. I set my initial settings using the test patterns on the AVS disc under basic :
  • Cell Light (100)
  • Brightness (63)
  • Contrast (75)
  • Color (51)
  • Tint (51g/49r)
  • Then gamma (0)-2.2
  • Color temp: Warm 1 (30 6300, 80 6100)

Once I get to the 2 step white balance (RGB OFFSET, RGB GAIN)
I run 30% and 80% grey patterns and Calman reports that the 30% has too much red and blue, and not enough green. 
And the 80% has way too much red and blue , and not enough green by far. 

 

To level this out correctly I have to compensate by lowering both the red and blue gains to 0 out of 50 (default is 25)
And on have to up the green to 50 (max) to get the the RGB levels in calman to be balanced. 

 

Something is wrong right there because from that moment on my screen is incredibly green tinted and calman is seeing this as an accurate and balanced white. 

From that moment on,  When I continue all the way through the 10 point calibration ( calman still tells me on all patterns over 50 that I have to raise the green and drop the red and blue levels)

And the CMS calibration

What results is an green tinted image. And the calman software show it as being balanced and calibrated. 


Please let me know if you need additional info from me 

So
My questions are:
  • Is there a problem with something in my set up?
  • Is there an issue with my meter?
  • Is there a meter profile I should use?

 

I'm frustrated and lost. I've posted on forums, no real luck. 

Please help if you can. 

Thank you in advance 
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fathermurphy  /t/1468552/calman-5-i1-display-pro-samsung-plasma-pn59d7000-59-green-results-help#post_23211089

Hi


I am having issues with calibrating my Samsung Plasma, using Calman 5 Basic.  Im experienced at calibrating, I've been using Calman since version 4, 


I am currently using the following setup:




• Calman 5 Basic ( 5.1.0) 


• i1 Display Pro Retail


• Samsung PN59D7000 59"


• AVS HD (Blu-ray) playing on a Samsung Blu-ray player




The basic issue is that every time I calibrate now, using calman 5...the results are incredibly green. 


I have run the calibration multiple times (4 since Friday) and each time I can see where it is going wrong. 


I have detailed the process below, there are not a lot of options I can customize on the basic package I have...I don't know If I need to profile my meter, or what




This is my process, let me know if you need additional info:


• I am using the 1913 color chart.
• Gamma is power 2.2.  


• Hd709 65


• Delta e 2000


• Set to plasma


• Calman widowed patterns ( But last night I tried APL )




I reset the picture mode...I run an advanced calibration. I set my initial settings using the test patterns on the AVS disc under basic :
  • Cell Light (100)
  • Brightness (63)
  • Contrast (75)
  • Color (51)
  • Tint (51g/49r)
  • Then gamma (0)-2.2
  • Color temp: Warm 1 (30 6300, 80 6100)


Once I get to the 2 step white balance (RGB OFFSET, RGB GAIN)


I run 30% and 80% grey patterns and Calman reports that the 30% has too much red and blue, and not enough green. 


And the 80% has way too much red and blue , and not enough green by far. 



 
To level this out correctly I have to compensate by lowering both the red and blue gains to 0 out of 50 (default is 25)


And on have to up the green to 50 (max) to get the the RGB levels in calman to be balanced. 



 
Something is wrong right there because from that moment on my screen is incredibly green tinted and calman is seeing this as an accurate and balanced white. 




From that moment on,  When I continue all the way through the 10 point calibration ( calman still tells me on all patterns over 50 that I have to raise the green and drop the red and blue levels)




And the CMS calibration




What results is an green tinted image. And the calman software show it as being balanced and calibrated. 




Please let me know if you need additional info from me 




So


My questions are:
  • Is there a problem with something in my set up?
  • Is there an issue with my meter?
  • Is there a meter profile I should use?



I'm frustrated and lost. I've posted on forums, no real luck. 




Please help if you can. 




Thank you in advance 

Couple of questions.


1. What is your source for displaying patterns and what are your source settings?

2. Try uninstalling and reinstalling Calman - ive had an issue before showing too much red on a profiled i1 Display Pro. Uninstall and reinstall fixed issue.

3. Perhaps you have a faulty metre?

4. Really you need a profile to achieve an accurate calibration.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Hi 

Thanks for the response...

I use a samsung Blu-ray player (ill get you the model number later, not great came free with the TV ) and AVS HD disc for Calman field patterns

No setting on the blurry....play it straight.

 

Source settings, is that what you mean?  1080P, 24 Hz.

 

I'm going to try to uninstall and reinstall....good point, I hadn't thought of that.

 

I've read that this has happened to a couple of people running Calman 5.1, that once they upgraded something altered? 

Maybe i need to profile the meter, I was thinking that.  How does one do that if I may ask?

 

 

And man, I hope the meter isn't faulty...it's 18 months old, been good to me...produced some very nice calibrations for me over that time....but maybe something is off within it?
 

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He noted in his brief he used windowed patterns.

ABL has effects, but usually not to this extent.


Isolation is always the key in problem solving.


Try a different display, you don't have to calibrate it so much as define if it also shows large green short comings in the defaults.


Try installing the software and meter drivers into a another PC(if you have one), measure its own monitor, then compare that with your laptop setup measuring the same display. Again you don't need to calibrate, it is only a comparison.


If this has the same result it means the culprit is carried through, if different, it means the culprit is within the laptop.




It is easy to 2nd guess yourself when something throws you a curve ball. Think about each component and isolate if you can, once narrowed down it is easier to deal with.
 

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I just had another thought.


Perhaps it's some other processing that is causing the issue. Particularly if it really only shows up in the fleshtones.


Try fully reseting the CMS and grayscale an only calibrating the 2 point controls.


If you don't get the issue until after calibrating gamma and CMS, it could be that it has more to do with the processing in the television.


Which means that perhaps we need to try a different mode for the gamut or perhaps a different starting gamma.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks Joe. Good points.

I have uninstalled and reinstalled calman 5

(No update to 5.1.0)


Going to try your steps

Trying to isolate

That does seem key here.


Ill post back

Thanks for taking the time.



Smokey Joe" url="/t/1468552/calman-5-i1-display-pro-samsung-plasma-pn59d7000-59-green-results-help#post_23211882"]He noted in his brief he used windowed patterns.

ABL has effects, but usually not to this extent.


Isolation is always the key in problem solving.


Try a different display, you don't have to calibrate it so much as define if it also shows large green short comings in the defaults.


Try installing the software and meter drivers into a another PC(if you have one), measure its own monitor, then compare that with your laptop setup measuring the same display. Again you don't need to calibrate, it is only a comparison.


If this has the same result it means the culprit is carried through, if different, it means the culprit is within the laptop.




It is easy to 2nd guess yourself when something throws you a curve ball. Think about each component and isolate if you can, once narrowed down it is easier to deal with.[/quote]
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks Scotti


So that's pretty much were I was last night.

Went to the 2 step

And it was there that I saw the problem begin to occur.


Once I take my readings of the 30 and 80% Greys

I follow Calman's advice and i set the RGB levels to where calman tells me it should be neutral , and my resulting pattern is green tinted 30 and 80 grey screens


Unfortunately it's not just flesh tones



(I have to take pictures of this now to fully explain)
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti  /t/1468552/calman-5-i1-display-pro-samsung-plasma-pn59d7000-59-green-results-help#post_23212459


I just had another thought.


Perhaps it's some other processing that is causing the issue. Particularly if it really only shows up in the fleshtones.


Try fully reseting the CMS and grayscale an only calibrating the 2 point .
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
UPDATE


Ok, think I got it.


It was combination of things in my method I believe.


Please offer advice if possible.



After setting initial settings (brightness , contrast, Color & tint)

I would set gamma to 0 ( thisnis usually dead on until I begin adjusting RGB )

And set to warm 1 (6100)


The next 2 steps are where my issues lay.


WHITE BALANCE

• RGB OFFSET + GAIN

• 10 POINT


To balance the white balance

i start with RGB offset + gain levels by testing on IRE 30 & IRE 80 patterns.


In realizing now that I wasn't sure how to balance them correctly...

For example, when testing IRE 60,70,80...

If the red and blue levels were too high... I would lower the red and blue gain, then they would balance out.


But the image left would be tinted green.


I realized last night that I could also up the green level and the red and green would also lower.


This adds a whole new issue, because that also screws the luminance / gamma up.


So RGB might balance, but gamma would be off.


So I went through each pattern repeatedly until RGB off-set and gain were set up then started the 10 point.


I watched the screen like a hawk. Iif the levels were balanced , but screen was green, I would alter with how I adjusted red blue and green until the result looked grey and levels were balanced.


I noticed that when contrast was set to anything over 80, the image would become unstable (red blue and green levels would separate increasingly over 80)


I dropped the contrast to 73.


After 3 hours of calibrating

I nailed the RGB Levels on each point of the 10 point white balance.


For the first time, even the 100 and 90 were perfectly level.


I'm seeing that because there are 2 ways to balanceRGB levels

It's important to watch the screen and make adjustments


Question:

Is there a rule to not moving the green when adjusting RGB levels?


I've also noticed that my luminance is now all screwy

All RGB are level, Color temp level


But

Gamma and luminance are bit high (bright) on IRE 1-50 ,


And low on levels IRE 60-100


So now ill need to go back and carefully adjust so gamma is straight 2.2 across 1-100IRE




Question

Is there a rule to adjusting green in white balance?

Are you not supposed to adjust green levels?

Only red. + blue?


I think I have the issue nailed down, adjusting the green levels sparingly has helped but now my RGB levels are solid and flat, but gamma and luminance are off (too bright in 0-50 IRE...to dark in 50-100)

I've adjusted the gamma, but the luminance dips at 50


Thanks I advance
 

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This would be my recommended technique for a system that is 10 point RGB system (not a panasonic RGB + G), with 2 point cuts and gains.


Start from system defaults, then disable all the dynamic backlight, contrast, fleshtone/color enhancement nonsense.


Adjust Contrast by eye so that you can resolve all the way to 255 and the pattern doesn't seem to discolor.

Adjust Brightness by eye so that you can see level 16, then turn brightness down till 16 disappears.

Recheck contrast and if you have a pattern generator that supports our clipping ramps, run the clipping ramp to peak white (255) and adjust accordingly.

For the following steps you want to be looking at RGB in Relative Mode in CalMAN, in this mode overall luminance is factored out and the target is 100%.

Now adjust gains at peak white, only turning a channel down, but never above default since that will cause clipping.

Adjust cuts at 30%, once again I would recommend only turning channels down and not above default.

If you turn a cut or gain down too far, feel free to move it back up, just not above defaults.

Recheck cuts and gains as a pair and repeat adjustments till both are balanced.

The end result should be that one channel for gains and one channel for cuts are at default and other 4 channels are turned down slightly.


Next Step would be moving on to the 10 point calibration.

Now start at 100% (235) and like we did for cuts/gains only adjust two channels down to meet the channel that is the weakest. So you should end up with one channel at default and two slightly reduced.

For the following steps you want to be looking at RGB in Absolute Mode in CalMAN, in this mode the target is 0 and a positive number indicates too much luminance, and a negative number indicates not enough luminance.

From there the other 9 steps you want adjust each RGB channel till it gets to 0 on the RGB absolute graph. When you've adjusted the points in this way you should get both correct white balance and correct grayscale.


When you are done, you should remeasure the entire grayscale ramp. Often times adjusting adjacent points will cause an interaction that won't show up unless you remeasure.


Tv's can do very funny thing with their image processing. But one thing is true, if the meter is measuring a specific x,y,Y value it won't matter what controls you adjusted to get there, that color will always appear the same in isolation.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fathermurphy  /t/1468552/calman-5-i1-display-pro-...000-59-green-results-help/0_100#post_23220325


Starting again from scratch

This is incredible rough.

Relative is luminance factored in

Absolute is with out.


.


NO

Relative is just that Relative to each other (RGB) No gamma (use for 2 point)

Absolute has Gamma included.. (use with 10point)
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
UPDATE

I have worked out my white balance issue

However I should state, I did this by using HCFR.

the issue was no doubt my method, but I found it a lot easier to fine tune these controls by using this program for the simple fact it has a section called free measure

On this page, you click a read button on program, the meter then takes constant readings, and shows results for :


RGB levels

Luminance

Color temperature

Delta E


It has a small section showing red green blue levels

You display a grey pattern and it tells you the stats for each of these.


This worked well for me because when you have balanced your RGB, you can see if the temp is off, luminance and delta e error al right there.


I ran 1-100 ire white balance and gamma readings every 20 mins, this is not in real time so to check your progress toy have to go back to recheck all these after every change you make


But

Making sure your temperature is consistent through all 1-100IRE patterns and watching the delta e allowed me to perfect that while calibrating


I ended up saying forget RGB levels


I decided to base my calibration soley on gamma an temperature results


I made sure each pattern was dialed in at d65

Then ran through 1-100 ire patterns again and checked gamma


Gamma was a disaster


I selected color breakout

Saw where the inconstancy a were

Check over all color temp

Check inconsistent RGB levels there


And I've the course of 8 hours

Eventually got my gamma to be as straight as a pencil (not really, but all points from 10-90 are at 2.2-2.3 now) and then checked color temp

All 10 points are between 6400 and 6500



I did have to move green at upper levels (7, 8, 9, 10)

But the relief

To see everything even


Then rechecked RGB

And surprisingly

By using this method


All levels are almost dead on anyway


I haven't even started color yet


But

I plan on checking all with calman after,just to see if results carry over.



Be in touch.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fathermurphy  /t/1468552/calman-5-i1-display-pro-samsung-plasma-pn59d7000-59-green-results-help#post_23226667


However I should state, I did this by using HCFR.

the issue was no doubt my method, but I found it a lot easier to fine tune these controls by using this program for the simple fact it has a section called free measure

On this page, you click a read button on program, the meter then takes constant readings, and shows results for :


RGB levels

Luminance

Color temperature

Delta E

CalMAN does the same. Perhaps you need a version other than Basic.

 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I think so yea

I was using 4.5 for a while and I got it from a buddy it was pretty loaded


When I decided to step up to calman 5

I didn't want to drop to much loot.

But I lost a lot of feature It looks like.


Love calman


But needed to step outside and try something different
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
UPDATE: FINISHED

14 hours today

Started from scratch

Used methods described from above to do white balance (they did carry over yes images below)

And then went to calman for the color.

Color is cake with calman


I couldn't nail everything down

My delta e wasn't perfect on colors


Either way

Had to trust my eyes with this alot.


But in the end, the green issue

I'm happy to report

Is no longer.


Thanks everyone Scotti And Nigel the Jedi

Wouldnt have been able to get this done without the help.

See below for images and settings


Calibration


HCFR white point

Calman color (100%)


Cell 20

Contrast 73

Bright 63

Tint 51-49

Color 51

Sharp 14

Gamma 0

Warm 2


CMT

Red 50,29,44

Green 100,53,0

Blue 0,35,61

Yellow 55,62,73

Cyan 100, 62,56

Magenta 31,100,40


White course

Offset

21,15,16

Gain

0,25,20


10p

1.

-2 0 -2

2.

-1, 0, -2

3.

0,0,0

4.

-3,0,-2

5

-1,0,-5

6.

-5, 0, -5

7.

-10,0,-5

8.

-10,0,-3

9.

-10,0,-10

10.

-10,0,-10


 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Update

The Meter is off somehow

Calibration looks good because I had to ignore the meter a readings a bit


But the meter was telling me there was too much red where there wasn't

And

Telling me to add more green where there was too much


This is why my original white results were green tinted

Meter thought they were neutral. But when you looked at them you could clearly see the excess green


I really noticed this while doing color


When calibrating red , the native tv settings produced beautiful rich reds

After calibrating

I had green saturated reds and yellows

I calibrate color (and white ) at 75%

So after calibration, I looked at the color red 100%

And it wasn't red it was greenish


Same with yellow


These were where it was most noticeable.


I set calman to read 100% Color


Recalibrated color and used meter as guide but eyes also


What I have now isn't reading as perfect on charts

But to look at it is 100% better than before


So

I need a new meter in short


And this time I'm not skimping


Ill drop $400-$500 on a great meter




Any suggestions on a Solid meter from you all?

One that would work with both HCFR and calman would be nice

But Calman's the priority.


Again

Any advice is massive. Thanks
 
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