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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Okay, I've taken a stab at my first calibration, using a ColorMunki, CalMAN, ControlCal and my former-floor model Pro-141FD. I ran into some early problems with my gamma/luminance readings, but tried the APL Window patterns from the AVSHD Disc and had much more consistent results. I am still, however, not sure how best to use the 9-point gamma settings and the limited Kuro CMS has left me with some serious questions about my color gamut. If I may implore the forum, I could really use some help with several steps in my process.


Source: PS3, YCrBr to "Auto" and Superwhite On, playing the AVSHD Rec. 709 disc burned from the "patched" file.


1) Contrast/Brightness Step:

When using the contrast pattern, I see almost no differentiation from what flashes and what doesn't when using a contrast setting between 25-40. It all looks the same to me, more or less. CalMAN only lists instructions for its own pattern generator, so I'd love to hear some advice on how best to settle my contrast setting for Day/Night readings.


Brightness goes a lot smoother, as there is a clear difference on each step above 0, but I'm finding I need to use a setting of 2-4 for daytime/bright room viewing in order to see the 17 line flash. Thoughts?


2) Greyscale

Just to be absolutely certain, the 141's high/low RGB settings are centered on what IRE levels, 20% and 80%? When using the bullseye measurement to set an ideal 100/100/100 reading on these IREs, I find it impossible to get the 10% IRE level to get very close to ideal. Is this acceptable and/or within the expected error of a Spectro? How do you guys address the mid IREs, 40-60? I find them very hard to nail down without adversely affecting the high/low areas.


3) CMS

Here's where things start to go pear-shaped for me. As most of you know, the Kuro offers limited RGBCMY control. Fortunately my color measurements all fall below a dE of 3 (with 1994 calculations). But my dL, dC and dH measurements are all over the place. I can move several colors to extremely low dEs, but only with settings in excess of the recommended +/- 2. Should I push for lower dE values or leave them be once I get below 3? should I focus on lower dL, dC or dH readings? I have very high dCs, and high dHs for my primaries. And I'm not sure I love my flesh tones with these settings as is.


Overall, what is the general advice for CMS adjustments, and the specific ones for this panel?


4) Gamma/Luminance

As you can see from my reports, I have an imperfect gamma line, with a low reading in the low and high ends. My luminance curve also reads above the line (so too low, correct?). Should I be using the Kuro's 9-point gamma settings to work on this gamma line issue? Do I have to move all the colors the same amount or can they be used independently? How do these gamma adjustments affect greyscale and should they be used at all for tweaking the greyscale? How critical is the luminance curve?


Also, ControlCal offers no way to change the Gamma setting number (it seems to default to 3 when using the ISF modes). Is this correct and if not, is there a solution?


5) Color

Via the workflow, I assume this means the color/tint settings, adjusted via the color bars patterns. Are there any tips/restrictions I should work with here? Don't move the tint if possible, for example, or constrain color adjustments to +/- 5? How do these settings affect the rest of my measurements?



Obviously a lot of this is panel-specific, but I think there is some value in addressing the greater questions. I know this is going to take a lot of trial & error, but I think my display is falling somewhere outside the normal operating range of these panels. Its life as a floor-model may have left it with some uneven or improper phospher aging. I would just love to find the best route possible to get this beautiful TV to look its best.


Thanks!


My Final Settings:


Picture

AV Selection: ISF-Day

Contrast : 32

Brightness : 4

Color : 7

Tint : 0

Sharpness : -15

Color Temp : Manual

Red High : 4

Green High : -2

Blue High : 8

Red Low : 2

Green Low : 2

Blue Low : 3

Gamma : 3 (ISF 9 Point Gamma in use)

ISF Gamma \t 1\t 2\t 3\t 4\t 5\t 6\t 7\t 8\t 9

Red :\t 0\t 0\t 0\t 0\t 0\t 0\t 0\t 0\t 0

Green :\t 1\t 0\t 0\t 0\t 0\t 0\t 0\t 0\t 0

Blue :\t 0\t 0\t 0\t 0\t 0\t 0\t 0\t 0\t 0
ISF Gamma123456789
Red000000000
Green100000000
Blue000000000

Pure Cinema

Film Mode : Standard

Text Optimization: Off


Intelligent Mode: Off


Picture Detail

DRE Picture : Off

Black Level : Off

ACL : Off

Enhancer Mode: Hard


Color Detail

CTI: Off

Color Management

R (RED) : -2

Y (YELLOW) : 1

G (GREEN) : -2

C (CYAN) : -1

B (BLUE) : 0

M (MAGENTA): -2

Color Space : 2


Noise Reduction

3DNR : Off

Field NR : Off

Block NR : Off

Mosquito NR: Off


Other

3DYC : Middle

IP Mode : 2 (Standard)

Drive Mode : 1 (75Hz)

Game Control : Off

Blue Only Mode: Off


Power & Options

Energy Save Mode : Standard

Room Light Sensor: Off

 

NAbelman Cal Report 1.pdf 121.0986328125k . file

 

NAbelman Cal Report 2.pdf 118.900390625k . file
 

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Since it's an older display you may try putting something between the meter and the screen, or positioning the meter slightly away from center. It would also be best if your source for your calibration disk was using RGB, not YCrBr. I would focus on getting blue, red, and green closer to the bulls-eye. I would worry less about delta luminance, and more about delta color.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Okay, so the age of the monitor would suggest that the meter shouldn't be directly on the screen? Hmm, maybe you can elaborate.


As for using RGB over YCrCb, what would be the reason for this? As I understand it, Bluray and other HD sources should be output using the YCrCb colorspace, no?


And since my dC is so off for so many colors, should I be free to use CMS adjustments beyond the recommended +/-2 in order to find a sweet spot?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by noahabel /forum/post/18206618


Okay, so the age of the monitor would suggest that the meter shouldn't be directly on the screen? Hmm, maybe you can elaborate.

Not necessarily. I was simply saying it may be a good idea to check by measuring something such as 100% white on a SMPTC pattern, then a 100% white window in the center to compare if it looks like black levels might be elevated too high or the screen has aged unevenly. You can also compare using the grey bars on the SMPTC pattern, specifically the one under blue.

Quote:
As for using RGB over YCrCb, what would be the reason for this? As I understand it, Bluray and other HD sources should be output using the YCrCb colorspace, no?

Both YCrCb and RGB use the same gamut. This is to check using your meter (able to do RGB) to see that gains/cuts are not causing your gamut to drift. This way you can watch RGB tracking and target areas you may want to improve upon since greyscale is done using RGB.


An alternative way to do this would be to do your greyscale while watching your RGB color balance, but this may not be a good indicator of ways to improve gamut. By watching the RGB tracking level it may not be perfectly flat to start with, but you could try and get at least one color good to start. If you are working on improving red or green for example , start with blue in RGB level tracking first, then see how this effects your gamut.


I'm not exactly sure RGB level tracking will be accurate for a flat display, so you may want to just start with gamut ignoring temperature awhile without greyscale being done yet. You could use YCrCb and ignore RGB level tracking. To do this set your gains/cuts in the middle and leave a color your working on with more cut, such as red. Red should ideally not be above +2-2 to start. Repeating this until your greyscale will agree more with primaries may give you some better results for gamut, but gamut is done first. I don't have hands on experience for this so please take with a grain of salt. I know this done differently for a spectrometer. For gamut I also know that you need to focus on more on Delta color (more accurate using your CM), but for this you may need to have a starting point, or something to compare against such as a second display. The method I describe while watching RGB tracking/ or RGB color balance may be a good starting point if your wanting to improve gamut. That will give you more accurate locations for your primaries/secondaries later on. It's likely that gamut has drifted but without knowing how to start with there is not much way to improve upon it if possible. Since your temperature looks alright, you may now be a good starting point to try improving greyscale, which may clear up some of your problems with gamut. If you can find which area needs adjustments after some basic temperature and greycale, that might be good enough to start with for ways to improve upon your results. Remember to write down your settings before you change anything.

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And since my dC is so off for so many colors, should I be free to use CMS adjustments beyond the recommended +/-2 in order to find a sweet spot?

Yes, that would be a good idea, but maybe try and stay bellow +5 or -2 when possible.
 

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Less is more with the Elite Kuros... By that, I mean less gamma and CMS "correction".

The multipoint gamma adjustment is pretty coarse, and your gamma should be acceptable without using it. The reason your gamma measures low at the low end is because of the boosted brightness setting. That doesn't necessarily mean you need to change your brightness setting, though it would be a good idea to go with a setting of 2 over a setting of 4. What that boils down to is that, in a bright room, it doesn't hurt to have a slightly low gamma, especially at the low end. The green gamma droop at the high end is caused by the measurement window size (a smaller window wouldn't show it), so don't worry about that. I have a pattern generator that has very small windows, and with those windows there is no top end gamma compression till you start to run out of blue.

Regarding CMS, Elite Kuros have pretty accurate color gamuts without changing the CMS at all, and since the CMS adjustment has such harmful side effects, it's debatable whether they should be used at all. My opinion is they usually should not be used, though once in a while I may make small adjustments.

Regarding your RGB tracking, I know it's a tiny error, but I would rather see a slight emphasis of blue than a slight emphasis of green.

Try adjusting the color control so the absolute luminance chart shows the least amount of red error. Looks like color should come down a bit.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by noahabel /forum/post/18191749



Also, ControlCal offers no way to change the Gamma setting number (it seems to default to 3 when using the ISF modes). Is this correct and if not, is there a solution?

The Gamma Presets are not used in the ISFccc Interface (it is ignored), you get the full 9 Point Gamma Controls.

Quote:
And since my dC is so off for so many colors, should I be free to use CMS adjustments beyond the recommended +/-2 in order to find a sweet spot?

Also, per your question above, do not adjust the CMS Controls more than 1-2 clicks in any direction (if you are going to use those Controls).


Brightness control seems high


Lastly, redo your grayscale (basically do a new session and that means resetting the 9 Point Gamma and CMS controls to 0 first), try not to adjust G-High and G-Low at all (only do so as a last resort).
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Okay, excellent feedback. I had started with some posted settings (yours, Turbe, I think, or maybe sillysally's) and worked from there. I should have started from zero.


I can see the essential dilemma with DIY calibration: attempting to do this using an objective or scientific viewpoint, that there is perfection to be found, you miss the art of it all, which requires a lot of practice, patience and experience. This is why I loved 35mm photography, it blends art and science.


Anyway, I will take a stab again this weekend. Most days I come home from work I just want to sit and enjoy the set, not spend hours tweaking it.


As a side question, how should/do the ISF-Day settings correlate to the ISF-night settings? In other words, should I start the Night cal from "0" or from the Day settings with lower absolute contrast and brightness settings? Also, how useful are the measurement methods for setting contrast/brightness (as described here: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewt...58fe389#115921 ) on these 9G Kuros?
 

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Well, you can keep yoru existing ISFccc Memory (isf Day) and start a new session with isf Night if you want, that way you compare the two as well..



Calibration is both science and art
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by noahabel /forum/post/18191749


1) Contrast/Brightness Step:

When using the contrast pattern, I see almost no differentiation


2) Greyscale

Just to be absolutely certain, the 141's high/low RGB settings are centered on what IRE levels, 20% and 80%?


3) CMS

Overall, what is the general advice for CMS adjustments, and the specific ones for this panel?


4) Gamma/Luminance

a) Should I be using the Kuro's 9-point gamma settings to work on this gamma line issue? b) Do I have to move all the colors the same amount or can they be used independently? c) How do these gamma adjustments affect greyscale and should they be used at all for tweaking the greyscale? d) How critical is the luminance curve?


5) Color

Via the workflow, I assume this means the color/tint settings, adjusted via the color bars patterns. Are there any tips/restrictions I should work with here? Don't move the tint if possible, for example, or constrain color adjustments to +/- 5? How do these settings affect the rest of my measurements?

1) Set DRE to Low and run the contrast test. If you see clearly see the bars then your source isn't clipping (the PS3 is reported to have some issues in RGB space). If the panel is clipping (which I suspect it is) then you have to decide if you can accept DRE. In any case you can set contrast to a reasonable output using your meter.


2) It's worth picking one primary and moving it significantly doing a before and after to determine what your Hight/Low controls are doing. My Kuro monitor (and I presume all of them with similar electronics) does not have common behavior. The Lows do act like a control point centered about 30% but the Highs behave like a DC offset for the entire range. If I were to treat them like two control points I'd struggle for a long time to get a flat chart.


3) Make changes no greater than +-2. Or just leave them alone. Switch your CIE view to UV (or just look at dE) to get a better feeling for what's going on.


4a) The control points interact a fair bit with each other which makes them tricky. However in some circumstances they can be useful.

4b) They can be used independently. 27 chances to make a mistake.

4c) I'd suggest not going down that road but if you do then the Absolute RGB Luminance chart will be helpful. It's not loaded by default so you have learn how to use designer mode.

4d) In the case of gross errors it's quite important for film/film-like sources. It won't have a lot of effect on the football party unless it's way off.


5) You'll want to measure the effect of the color control and tint controls using the gamut patterns (I'm not sure what you mean when you say color bars pattern). On my panel the color control has very little effect on saturation (dC) and is primarily a luminance control. Looking at your absolute luminance it looks like your getting similar effect. If you brought color down a few clicks you can probably reduce your dEs to less than three.


In the grand scheme of things your display is now set-up better than 95% of them so don't forget to watch the occasional movie.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom /forum/post/18233516


1) Set DRE to Low and run the contrast test. If you see clearly see the bars then your source isn't clipping (the PS3 is reported to have some issues in RGB space). If the panel is clipping (which I suspect it is) then you have to decide if you can accept DRE. In any case you can set contrast to a reasonable output using your meter.

I'll recommend you download the CalMAN HTPC generator and follow the instructions in CalMAN to set brightness/contrast.


2) It's worth picking one primary and moving it significantly doing a before and after to determine what your Hight/Low controls are doing. My Kuro monitor (and I presume all of them with similar electronics) does not have common behavior. The Lows do act like a control point centered about 30% but the Highs behave like a DC offset for the entire range. If I were to treat them like two control points I'd struggle for a long time to get a flat chart.



3) Make changes no greater than +-2. Or just leave them alone. Switch your CIE view to UV (or just look at dE) to get a better feeling for what's going on.


CalMAN doesn't have a UV CIE view mode. Watch delta color.

Quote:
4a) The control points interact a fair bit with each other which makes them tricky. However in some circumstances they can be useful.

4b) They can be used independently. 27 chances to make a mistake.

4c) I'd suggest not going down that road but if you do then the Absolute RGB Luminance chart will be helpful. It's not loaded by default so you have learn how to use designer mode.

4d) In the case of gross errors it's quite important for film/film-like sources. It won't have a lot of effect on the football party unless it's way off.

This is why getting a starting point with gamut is critical. Your actually measuring saturation points later on, not luminance. You can use the CalMAN "Advanced" mode if you want to look at absolute luminance.

Quote:
5) You'll want to measure the effect of the color control and tint controls using the gamut patterns

Right, but only use green or red.

Quote:
(I'm not sure what you mean when you say color bars pattern). On my panel the color control has very little effect on saturation (dC) and is primarily a luminance control. Looking at your absolute luminance it looks like your getting similar effect. If you brought color down a few clicks you can probably reduce your dEs to less than three.

Tint and color are set after brightness/contrast. "Color bars" are the SMPTC color test pattern useful for checking luminance. Gamut, or 100%/75% saturation windows, are only useful for setting X and Y. Color bars can also be useful when setting brightness, which may have been what the OP was checking on since primarily, color ramps or gradient ramps will be more useful for checking gamma.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveMo
I'll recommend you download the CalMAN HTPC generator and follow the instructions in CalMAN to set brightness/contrast.
The AVSHD disc is fine for setting white and black level. If you're looking for an improvement you should look toward Spears and Munsil. The HTPC generator is difficult to use and unstable. If you don't think so you fail to understand its limitations or those of an HTPC in general.

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CalMAN doesn't have a UV CIE view mode. Watch delta color.
I'm talking about the CIE Gamut uv chart -- seen in the attached image (from pre-CMS adjustments of Standard mode on my Kuro).

Quote:
"Color bars" are the SMPTC color test pattern
I'm familiar with the SMPTE color bar patterns and frankly most of what you've posted here is nonsense starting with RGB versus YUV and ending with
Quote:
100%/75% saturation windows, are only useful for setting X and Y.

 

stdPreCMS.pdf 41.3759765625k . file
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom /forum/post/18234915


The AVSHD disc is fine for setting white and black level. If you're looking for an improvement you should look toward Spears and Munsil. The HTPC generator is difficult to use and unstable. If you don't think so you fail to understand its limitations or those of an HTPC in general.

Did I say it wasn't?


Quote:
I'm talking about the CIE Gamut uv chart -- seen in the attached image (from pre-CMS adjustments of Standard mode on my Kuro).

My comments were not meant to do anything with your results, merely I was correcting a few points to better clarify what I think you were trying to advise to the OP.

Quote:
I'm familiar with the SMPTE color bar patterns and frankly most of what you've posted here is nonsense starting with RGB versus YUV and ending with

I never mentioned YUV. A spectrometer that works in RGB is best calibrated using RGB for better greyscale tracking. Do your research before accusing people of something they have never said.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveMo /forum/post/18208627


...

This way you can watch RGB tracking and target areas you may want to improve upon since greyscale is done using RGB.

...

I'm not exactly sure RGB level tracking will be accurate for a flat display, so you may want to just start with gamut ignoring temperature awhile without greyscale being done yet. You could use YCrCb and ignore RGB level tracking....

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveMo /forum/post/18235299


My comments were not meant to do anything with your results, merely I was correcting a few points to better clarify what I think you were trying to advise to the OP.

Please don't help.

Quote:
I never mentioned YUV. A spectrometer that works in RGB is best calibrated using RGB for better greyscale tracking. Do your research before accusing people of something they have never said.

If you actually owned a Kuro you'd know that Pioneer uses YUV in their menus to mean YCbCr. Or you could read my signature. In any case I stand in awe of your profound misunderstanding of YUV vs RGB and the way displays work. I'd advise you do some research about basic display technology and stop giving people bogus information. You can start with the second link in my signature which discusses the transformation of YCC into RGB by the display device which is required because video on disc (DVD or BD) is stored in YCC.


Bored now.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom /forum/post/18235783


Try it yourself.

Quote:
Please don't help.

Oh boy.

Quote:
If you actually owned a Kuro you'd know that Pioneer uses YUV in their menus to mean YCbCr. Or you could read my signature. In any case I stand in awe of your profound misunderstanding of YUV vs RGB and the way displays work. I'd advise you do some research about basic display technology and stop giving people bogus information. You can start with the second link in my signature which discusses the transformation of YCC into RGB by the display device which is required because video on disc (DVD or BD) is stored in YCC.


Bored now.

YUV is color decoding. I have no idea what point your trying to make.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Nice! My thread has sparked a war of words! Thanks for the interest guys, I like the idea of a little bit of discussion getting the truth out there.


Anyway, I had some follow up questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bodosom /forum/post/18233516


1) Set DRE to Low and run the contrast test. If you see clearly see the bars then your source isn't clipping (the PS3 is reported to have some issues in RGB space). If the panel is clipping (which I suspect it is) then you have to decide if you can accept DRE. In any case you can set contrast to a reasonable output using your meter.

While I have read plenty about avoiding DRE, what exactly does it do to the signal and what are the pros/cons of its use? Should my 141FD be clipping?

Quote:
2) It's worth picking one primary and moving it significantly doing a before and after to determine what your Hight/Low controls are doing. My Kuro monitor (and I presume all of them with similar electronics) does not have common behavior. The Lows do act like a control point centered about 30% but the Highs behave like a DC offset for the entire range. If I were to treat them like two control points I'd struggle for a long time to get a flat chart.

So you mean only tweak the high/low of one primary and see where the peaks or valleys are in the RGB tracking chart? Clever, will do. I would agree that the low seems to center strongest at 30% and I get a lot better uniform control over 80% and above using the highs. Though I get some scatter at 100% that can't be controlled easily.


One question: why would the results of the greyscale session be different from the RGB graph created during the luminance/gamma session? The latter always comes out very scattered versus what I end up with in the greyscale window.

Quote:
3) Make changes no greater than +-2. Or just leave them alone. Switch your CIE view to UV (or just look at dE) to get a better feeling for what's going on.

What should I be looking at with the UV chart versus the XY one?

Quote:
4a) The control points interact a fair bit with each other which makes them tricky. However in some circumstances they can be useful.

4b) They can be used independently. 27 chances to make a mistake.

4c) I'd suggest not going down that road but if you do then the Absolute RGB Luminance chart will be helpful. It's not loaded by default so you have learn how to use designer mode.

4d) In the case of gross errors it's quite important for film/film-like sources. It won't have a lot of effect on the football party unless it's way off.

What is my target/goal with the absolute RGB Luminance chart? Is this the luminance chart split into RGB lines?

Quote:
5) You'll want to measure the effect of the color control and tint controls using the gamut patterns (I'm not sure what you mean when you say color bars pattern). On my panel the color control has very little effect on saturation (dC) and is primarily a luminance control. Looking at your absolute luminance it looks like your getting similar effect. If you brought color down a few clicks you can probably reduce your dEs to less than three.

Okay, here's where I stumble. What do you mean by "gamut patterns?" I was doing my color/tint adjustments using the SMPTE bar pattern, blue filters, etc. Should I also be using the meter and certain color 75% windows to measure the effect the color/tint settings have?

Quote:
In the grand scheme of things your display is now set-up better than 95% of them so don't forget to watch the occasional movie.

And this is what I've been trying to do. Man, I really love the panel. I just want it to look its best.


Thanks for the help!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by noahabel /forum/post/18245593


While I have read plenty about avoiding DRE, what exactly does it do to the signal and what are the pros/cons of its use? Should my 141FD be clipping?

You should review the KRP threads. First you have to find out if you're clipping and where. If you send clipping patterns (brightness and contrast adjustment bars) in RGBce (16-235) and set the panel to 0-255 (RGBit) bars below 17 and above 240 will be clearly visible unless something upstream is clipping them (player, ARR, VP etc.). If you see them with DRE on but not when DRE is off then your panel is clipping them. If the source chain is clipping you need fix that first. If you can buy/borrow an Oppo BD player you can trust it not to clip. If DRE unclips you can calibrate with it off (use the near black patterns to set Brightness and your meter to set contrast) then carefully watch some reference quality BD material (e.g. Dark Knight etc.) and see if DRE annoys you.

Quote:
So you mean only tweak the high/low of one primary and see where the peaks or valleys are in the RGB tracking chart? Clever, will do.

I'm not the origin of that idea.

Quote:
One question: why would the results of the greyscale session be different from the RGB graph created during the luminance/gamma session? The latter always comes out very scattered versus what I end up with in the greyscale window.

You should provide charts.

Quote:
What should I be looking at with the UV chart versus the XY one?

If you're going to use a "CIE" plot at all the uv version is better for visualizing dE94. You can see that the blue primary in the example I posted clearly has a much greater dE. The original attachment had support charts that made that clear.

Quote:
What is my target/goal with the absolute RGB Luminance chart? Is this the luminance chart split into RGB lines?

AbsRGBL chart is an 11 point RGB bar graph with the y-axis centered at zero. If all the bars have zero "height" your CCT and gamma are correct. If 30% is even but negative CCT is correct but gamma is wrong

Quote:
Should I also be using the meter and certain color 75% windows to measure the effect the color/tint settings have?

Yes. You can use the advanced gamut layout or the color/tint layout and associated help files to adjust color. The advanced layout will break-out dC, dH and dL as well as show you dE. You want to minimize dE but hue errors are more obvious than color (saturation) errors.
 
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