I was just wondering if Danley or anyone had patented the concept (I thought I remembered reading something about a patent with Danley and the Tapped Horn) I was just curious if in the future we will start seeing companies like SVS,eD, Epic, etc start manufacturing them. I know one problem they run into is shipping with such large subs but a few of the companies already make subs weighing 300-400lbs
Can anyone build a horn sub?
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Horns are the oldest form of speaker, dating back to Edison, and there's very little about them that could be patented, other than a specific design's dimensions etc. Few companies build them due to the high labor cost. Few people buy them because they're expensive and they're big.
Horns are the oldest form of speaker, dating back to Edison, and there's very little about them that could be patented, other than a specific design's dimensions etc. Few companies build them due to the high labor cost. Few people buy them because they're expensive and they're big.
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Yes but they're still big. Actually the advent of affordable high power amplifiers is what made horns obsolete in PA.
Yes but they're still big. Actually the advent of affordable high power amplifiers is what made horns obsolete in PA.
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Horns aren't the least bit obsolete in PA. They still own the top end, especially top end subs.
Horns aren't the least bit obsolete in PA. They still own the top end, especially top end subs.
From what I have researched horns also offer the best PA sound quality of any standard line array system. Except they take up a lot more space.
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/pa.htm
http://sound.westhost.com/articles/pa.htm
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Usually if something is obsolete it means that over a reasonable amount of time everyone that had been using the obsolete technology would then start using the newer technology. So why are so are horns still being used then if they are obsolete?
Usually if something is obsolete it means that over a reasonable amount of time everyone that had been using the obsolete technology would then start using the newer technology. So why are so are horns still being used then if they are obsolete?
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Market value just like Bill said. Your average consumer doesn't want a huge horn subwoofer in their living room. Horns will become obsolete when you can do the same or close to the same performance from a standard size enclosure. Take the performance of a tht and make it fit in a svs ultra size enclosure and then the ultra and horns stop being sold. Technology hasn't got that advanced yet. It may not for a good while.
Market value just like Bill said. Your average consumer doesn't want a huge horn subwoofer in their living room. Horns will become obsolete when you can do the same or close to the same performance from a standard size enclosure. Take the performance of a tht and make it fit in a svs ultra size enclosure and then the ultra and horns stop being sold. Technology hasn't got that advanced yet. It may not for a good while.
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I would think that it is mostly due to the design complexity of making a "good" one and the size issue. The people willing to have a couple of 10cubic foot or in many cases much larger boxes in their room are few and far between.
Seems like the actual manufacturing cost overhead of a horn is much less than a conventional direct radiator type cabinet. Most of the cost is in the wood for the enclosure which is comparatively cheap and once you get the design nailed most of cabinet assembly shouldn't be too bad especially when precision cut with a cnc. You can use less extravagent drivers and a smaller cheaper amp and let the enclosure do the work. In a high powered direct radiator design you need to spend much more money on the usually multiple drive units and also the amplifier which needs to be much more powerful to make up for the big efficiency disadvantage.
I would think that it is mostly due to the design complexity of making a "good" one and the size issue. The people willing to have a couple of 10cubic foot or in many cases much larger boxes in their room are few and far between.
Seems like the actual manufacturing cost overhead of a horn is much less than a conventional direct radiator type cabinet. Most of the cost is in the wood for the enclosure which is comparatively cheap and once you get the design nailed most of cabinet assembly shouldn't be too bad especially when precision cut with a cnc. You can use less extravagent drivers and a smaller cheaper amp and let the enclosure do the work. In a high powered direct radiator design you need to spend much more money on the usually multiple drive units and also the amplifier which needs to be much more powerful to make up for the big efficiency disadvantage.
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Manufacturing the average direct radiator entails less than two man-hours of labor, the average horn more than twelve. The parts count of a horn is on average three times that of a direct radiator. That's why in the pro-sound realm the majority of cabs in the under $2,000 range are direct radiators, with horns used only for the high frequency sections. The higher the price range the more likely you are to find horns.
As to the 'watts are cheap' argument, that went the way of the dodo with two-dollar a gallon gas. Pro-touring sound companies had to find ways to reduce their rig sizes to hold down transportation costs. Line arrays instead of cluster arrays were part one of that equation, horns were part two. Horns aren't larger than direct radiators for equal output, they're smaller, and they use a lot less power for equal output, which also reduces the power supply requirements of major venues.
Manufacturing the average direct radiator entails less than two man-hours of labor, the average horn more than twelve. The parts count of a horn is on average three times that of a direct radiator. That's why in the pro-sound realm the majority of cabs in the under $2,000 range are direct radiators, with horns used only for the high frequency sections. The higher the price range the more likely you are to find horns.
As to the 'watts are cheap' argument, that went the way of the dodo with two-dollar a gallon gas. Pro-touring sound companies had to find ways to reduce their rig sizes to hold down transportation costs. Line arrays instead of cluster arrays were part one of that equation, horns were part two. Horns aren't larger than direct radiators for equal output, they're smaller, and they use a lot less power for equal output, which also reduces the power supply requirements of major venues.
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My statement was in reply to Th3_uN1Qu3, he stated that Horns were obsolete, and my statement was pointing out that they were in no way obsolete yet.
My statement was in reply to Th3_uN1Qu3, he stated that Horns were obsolete, and my statement was pointing out that they were in no way obsolete yet.
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Sorry, didn't mean for it to come off like that. I was just trying to reinforce your point.
Sorry, didn't mean for it to come off like that. I was just trying to reinforce your point.
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And when you run a high power amplifier into a fornt loaded box with a driver capabile of highXmax the driver moves quite a bit.
That directly translates into distortion.
In a horn the driver much less-so the distortion is also lower. THen when you couple the fact that higher freq lose energy as they go around the bends in the horn-the distortion gets even lower still.
Just about every product Danley sells is a horn (there are 3 exception) and Danely has always had quite a growth-so I would not say horns are "obsolete".
Especially in the higher freq. Do you know of another way to get good pattern control without a horn? In both horizontal and vertical dimensions?
And when you run a high power amplifier into a fornt loaded box with a driver capabile of highXmax the driver moves quite a bit.
That directly translates into distortion.
In a horn the driver much less-so the distortion is also lower. THen when you couple the fact that higher freq lose energy as they go around the bends in the horn-the distortion gets even lower still.
Just about every product Danley sells is a horn (there are 3 exception) and Danely has always had quite a growth-so I would not say horns are "obsolete".
Especially in the higher freq. Do you know of another way to get good pattern control without a horn? In both horizontal and vertical dimensions?
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I actually was saying that watts still cost money...I don't run an enclosure fabrication shop so you may be right about the rest. I'm just speculating.
What I am saying is this...you don't see bass horns in Home/studio/car audio much because they are large and also much harder to design well. Not because they are expensive to produce.
In a good double 18" pro cab you have 2 drivers that are going to be much more expensive than the single 15" used in a horn that would compete. Also you may need a 3-4kw amp for the double 18 where you can get away with a 1-2kw amp for the horn so you could save some money there as well. This is offset by the 2hrs of assembly labor versus 12hrs that you mentioned before and the additional wood. I don't think that an extra 8-10hrs of labor (especially if it's Chinese) if it is indeed that much extra labor, is going to completely offset the extra cost of the drivers in the direct radiator. For example a pair of B&C TBX100 18's is about $600 versus about $250 for one 15". $350 difference. I'm sure that MFG's don't pay that much but you get the point.
Why don't some of the bigger names in the Pro field make many bass horns anymore? JBL,EAW, Yorkville, etc? I refuse to believe that JBL couldn't design a killer bass horn if they wanted to, so I guess that points to your contention that they are more expensive to produce as the reason...unless there is some other advantage to the direct radiators
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I actually was saying that watts still cost money...I don't run an enclosure fabrication shop so you may be right about the rest. I'm just speculating.
What I am saying is this...you don't see bass horns in Home/studio/car audio much because they are large and also much harder to design well. Not because they are expensive to produce.
In a good double 18" pro cab you have 2 drivers that are going to be much more expensive than the single 15" used in a horn that would compete. Also you may need a 3-4kw amp for the double 18 where you can get away with a 1-2kw amp for the horn so you could save some money there as well. This is offset by the 2hrs of assembly labor versus 12hrs that you mentioned before and the additional wood. I don't think that an extra 8-10hrs of labor (especially if it's Chinese) if it is indeed that much extra labor, is going to completely offset the extra cost of the drivers in the direct radiator. For example a pair of B&C TBX100 18's is about $600 versus about $250 for one 15". $350 difference. I'm sure that MFG's don't pay that much but you get the point.
Why don't some of the bigger names in the Pro field make many bass horns anymore? JBL,EAW, Yorkville, etc? I refuse to believe that JBL couldn't design a killer bass horn if they wanted to, so I guess that points to your contention that they are more expensive to produce as the reason...unless there is some other advantage to the direct radiators
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I had a friend who worked with one of the companies you listed above. The reason they didn't want to build/market bass horns is not at all what you would think.
They actaully had meetings in which he brought up the idea for bass horns.
The reason was simple-money. Their resonse was- why should we sell a more effiecient cabinet and make X amount of dollars, when we can sell a bunch more cabinets to do the same job and make a lot more money?
They had the reputation and people would just pile up more non horn cabinets and "be happy".
The almight dollar wins again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci /forum/post/18114819
Why don't some of the bigger names in the Pro field make many bass horns anymore? JBL,EAW, Yorkville, etc? I refuse to believe that JBL couldn't design a killer bass horn if they wanted to, so I guess that points to your contention that they are more expensive to produce as the reason...unless there is some other advantage to the direct radiators.![]()
I had a friend who worked with one of the companies you listed above. The reason they didn't want to build/market bass horns is not at all what you would think.
They actaully had meetings in which he brought up the idea for bass horns.
The reason was simple-money. Their resonse was- why should we sell a more effiecient cabinet and make X amount of dollars, when we can sell a bunch more cabinets to do the same job and make a lot more money?
They had the reputation and people would just pile up more non horn cabinets and "be happy".
The almight dollar wins again.
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15,491 Posts
+1.
+1.
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Compare what it would take to get the same output with a direct radiator, the size isn't going to be any smaller, not unless you run a driver with four times the excursion and enough power to push it. The notion that horns were 'dead' and it made more sense to use lots of direct radiators and lots of watts arose in the 1970s, when concert sound levels were on average 10dB lower than today, there was no such thing as subwoofers, and home theater hadn't been invented. Things have changed, and the horn is back.
Compare what it would take to get the same output with a direct radiator, the size isn't going to be any smaller, not unless you run a driver with four times the excursion and enough power to push it. The notion that horns were 'dead' and it made more sense to use lots of direct radiators and lots of watts arose in the 1970s, when concert sound levels were on average 10dB lower than today, there was no such thing as subwoofers, and home theater hadn't been invented. Things have changed, and the horn is back.
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