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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I think this idea - can home theater and an audiophile listening room co-exist in the same space merits discussion.

If you would permit me, many cities now have both a football stadium and a baseball stadium. I like sports, I don't think that tax payer money should be used for either but the germane point is industry experts don't think football and baseball can be accommodated well in the same architectural space.

When I think of a theater, home or otherwise I think of multi-row cascading-seating with hidden speakers and huge screen. When I think of an audiophile listening room I think of perfection of sonic reproduction.

So will a room look like a theater if it has 11 speakers and 2 subs on the floor? No. I am not sure why the speakers should out number the people? More often than not I watch movies in a love seat with my 80# dog in my lap. Is that a theater, no.

Is a home theater the same as a living room, no. Does an audiophile listening room have a dozen speakers laying all over, no. A home theater or an audiophile listening room is a single purpose room.

Even without a wife, I have my own WAF so in the last dozen years I've managed to put many thousands of CDs, DVDs, LPs and tapes on a server because the room was looking less like a home than the national archive. Is a national archive a HT or a listening room? No.

If one has a 80" TV in their living room, along with the babies high chair, and a big sectional not pointed at the TV is that a home theater? Every seat in a HT is a pretty good seat, otherwise it's just a living room with a big TV.

I have a 65" flat screen TV. I sit on a comfortable love seat, eat and watch news or sports. I'm not dissatisfied, it is for me a dual purpose room. The room is darkened with rather thick drapes. I take my listening much more serious than my watching. Is it a HT? No.

Should other folks work out something for themselves that works for them and their family? Sure. Is it a HT? Maybe, maybe not?

Most home theaters are just a TV with an untamed herd of speakers and a rats nest of exposed wires all over that don't meet code.

Why is my nose out of joint, because quality 2 channel audiophile equipment has been largely pushed aside in favor of anything home theater. Speakers now all have tiny 12"x12" footprints so that folks can fill a room with a whole mess of them. Speakers are no longer designed with sonic output as the first criteria, it's now how many can we sell so that they fit in a tiny room? Home Theaters should have flush, or wall mounedt, or behind the screen speakers. I would not care if everyone or no one had a home theater if the trend did not interfere with good speaker design and choices. That is so many speakers today have 5" or smaller mid-range and no woofer.

At least with audiophile listening there is some objective standard, some goal. Home theater does have THX standard which is nice but how could someone wake up one day and conclude that 9.1 is not enough and to be really happy in this life they need 11.2? How long before 23.3?

I see this as a fad, like pet rocks and hula hoops, driven by a few decades of musically illiterate who grew up thinking iPod was high fidelity and rap is a form of music. Music has rhythm, harmony and melody as a minimum. Sampling may not be substituted for talent.

My intention is not to offend anyone but yes I enjoy being provocative. If I get your feathers out of alignment please feel free to fire off a well though out and cogent response. I'm Irish, in a virtual neighborly donnybrook no one should ever get hurt.

Until then, peace on Earth to Men of goodwill.

PS. I can see that I will draw the ire of some folks with fabulous home theaters I'd die for. Please don't be upset, I wasn't talking about your $250,000 home theater, just the other 99.5%.
 

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I'll address your thread question first - yes.

This question was addressed in your last thread. I have no idea why this notion of a combination home theater and 2 channel (which I refer to as a hybrid system) listening combination has pressed your hot buttons. It shouldn't. Either you have the room for separate areas and do it - or you don't have that space so you make do with what you have. Simple logic IMO.

I suppose I could go along with the majority opinion around here and use an AVR for music and movies. I don't for one reason - I can afford 'hybrid' separates and its what I chose for myself - I think it sounds quite good - better in fact than using the AVR (Marantz 5008). When I want to watch that occasional movie with an exceptional 5.1 soundtrack I turn on the multi channel gear. Its my choice - I see no reason for anyone to get upset for me doing what I want. Its my choice.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
My buttons may be hidden or more difficult to push than you suppose. I have some ability to be ignorant or uninformed in areas in which I have some special education or expertise. In all most every other area, which is almost everything I can be especially wrong all most all the time.

In as much as you have been very helpful to me recently, the last thing I want to display would be that I can be more offensive by choice than I am by nature.

When for example I was recently looking at Yamaha best $3,0000 preamp it had a menagerie of expensive features few of which forwarded my two channel ambitions. What's their best non-home theater pre-amp? They don't have one.

Last week when I visited my local hi-fi shop he had one room with maybe a half dozen pair of audiophile speakers. His much larger home theater display room must have had fifty pair, all looking much the same; one tweeter with one maybe two 5" midrange on a 12" square pillar.

I guess if I can articulate my central point, the audiophile industry and consumers have paid a very dear price, in money and sound quality, for this hybrid arrangement. So I'll make a distinction that you may have over looked. One can do either, or even both; but my point is can one do both very well in the same room?

For example, one can fish off of a boat, or one can sail a sail boat. But one can't fish off of a sail boat because there is just too damn much crap in the way. I guess you could if you were starving but no one does it by design because the essential design requirements conflict with each other.

I have a few surround sound CDs. I purchased them by accident. The essential quality of music is that it is presented on a stage, real or virtual. That is essentially in conflict with the notion of surround sound. If you PM me with your street address I'll send them to as a peace offering.

So the question is less can you pipe together some system you can live with, as much as can one reconcile the fundamentally irreconcilable. It's like a flying building or a fighting pacifist or any other contradiction in terms. I'm a monotheist who believes in a Trinity so perhaps anything is possible.

I had (past tense) a very nice working two channel system for its day. I ask myself am I willing to make the compromises, such as innumerable speakers and the clutter of speaker wires in search of a home theater. If I am not am I willing to pull wire through walls and be satisfied with performance of flush speakers? And if I have to compromise one function or the other, what am I will to fight for and what am I willing to fight against?

Maybe if I had not just finished a epic battle against clutter in that room?

As always, you mileage may vary.

Peace be upon you and yours.

Timothy
 

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One can do either, or even both; but my point is can one do both very well in the same room?
Yes you can. My reference system is 7.2 configurable to 2.2 or 2.0. When in 2.0 mode the rest of the speakers sit there doing nothing. They are not in-wall :)rolleyes:) and all 7 speakers are the same make of 10" coaxial port tuned to 40Hz. If I want that last octave I turn on the .2 . Having more than two speakers does not interfere with a stereo image. Having the L/R behind an AT screen does not effect them as well as they were designed to be behind the screen. *by me*

Does the average consumer care about all this minutia... no. Never have.

The thing about "audiophiles" is that they are a tiny group that exist in an echo chamber. In an echo chamber even a small group can sound like an army to themselves.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Yes you can. My reference system is 7.2 configurable to 2.2 or 2.0. When in 2.0 mode the rest of the speakers sit there doing nothing. They are not in-wall :)rolleyes:) and all 7 speakers are the same make of 10" coaxial port tuned to 40Hz. If I want that last octave I turn on the .2 . Having more than two speakers does not interfere with a stereo image. Having the L/R behind an AT screen does not effect them as well as they were designed to be behind the screen. *by me*

Does the average consumer care about all this minutia... no. Never have.

The thing about "audiophiles" is that they are a tiny group that exist in an echo chamber. In an echo chamber even a small group can sound like an army to themselves.
Thanks Billy,

I am happy to be wrong about this, and learn something in the process.

Thanks again,

Tim
 

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I'm going to break this into two points, which I think are the main cores of this topic.
1. HT systems can achieve flat frequency response, as audiophile systems can. Therefore I think there's nothing in the hardware itself that means good sound stage can't be achieved in both HT and 2.0, on a HT system. Often, I would bet its easier to achieve good sound in HT builds, because there's less need for the system to look conservative or pleasing to the spouse eyes.
2. Frequencies on the higher bits of the spectrum are more and more directional. To get a reasonable sound stage on my particular cheapo towers I need to put a 1cm wood piece under the fronts to angle them back a set amount by adjusting where under the speakers the wood piece is placed, as well as adjust the toe-in angle meticulously in addition to adjusting the distance to the wall. I would guesstimate that 95% of people don't do this, in 2.0 setups or surround setups.
I would also wager that this is the main reason some HT's and 2.0 systems don't sound good, because the directivity of high frequencies are so high that if each speaker in the HT system is just a tad off, your particular frequency response in a seating location from each speaker will be off target. So voices from certain speakers will not sound precisely like voices from other speakers, putting off the sound stage feeling.
If one were to adjust the speakers in a HT one would be able to get a proper 2.0 sound stage. Whether or not you can adjust all the speakers to have 7.2 or whatever sound stage in all seating locations, I think is a tall order, but not impossible. But in either case, achieving 2.0 sound stage is as easy in a 7.2 system as in a 2.0 system, in regards to adjusting the two speaker locations and angles. Achieving the correct 2.0 sound stage in all seating locations in a HT is a tall order, but that's the case in 2.0 systems as well.
 

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Why can't people have both?


There are plenty of speakers that are capable of dual purpose Home-theater/Audiophile setups. Of course, the more you're willing to spend, the better the result! Salk, B&W, Monitor Audio, Paradigm, Legacy Audio, Kef, all have speakers capable of doing both setups.


I think when people think of "Home-theater" they tend to think of Horns, as that's what most theaters use. Horns can be good, but since they're good at filling up large spaces and being very efficient, people tend to say they come off as overly bright, or not musical. I think Horns are just as capable as other speakers, it's just that since it's an older technology and cheaper to produce, the market tends to be flooded with speakers only suited for Home-theater and not for serious music listening. I do think if you were to build a quality speaker with Horns, they might make excellent dual purpose speakers for both movies and music. Those speakers do exist, but since most people are stigmatized with them being Home-Theater centric, they don't give them a chance!


I say if you are looking for both musical and movie capable speakers, that would be more reason to try many brands in person, because musical taste varies. But I do think they're speakers capable of both!
 

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Have two rooms and two setups, that's what I have done. Doesn't cost that much more, as I have moved power amplifiers from the HT to the Hifi as I bought a new HT power amplifier.

My HT has decent L/R speakers and can play good 2 channel but not so sure the AV pre is upto the sound quality as the stereo pre.
 

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First of all, there are an enormous number of assumptions being made on your part, that simply do not gel with my own experience or that of most of the audio/HT people I actually know.


I think this idea - can home theater and an audiophile listening room co-exist in the same space merits discussion.
If you would permit me, many cities now have both a football stadium and a baseball stadium. I like sports, I don't think that tax payer money should be used for either but the germane point is industry experts don't think football and baseball can be accommodated well in the same architectural space.
I agree with you re taxpayer money, but here in Oz we accommodate different sports in the same parks all the time, from local council owned amateur venues to large stadiums all the time. Cricket is played in summer, so it is set up for that then, with soccer, rugby league/union and some other sports such as field hockey on some occasions. They just mark it differently and add/remove goals etc as required. Most of the local parks are set up in winter with a set of H goals with the bottom of the H widened to also allow them to be used for soccer, often on the same day.

When I think of a theater, home or otherwise I think of multi-row cascading-seating with hidden speakers and huge screen. When I think of an audiophile listening room I think of perfection of sonic reproduction.
Why do you assume there are multi rows, and why they MLP would be any worse if there was a single chair there? In my experience, more HT people actually bother trying to acoustically improve the space than 2ch people do and many of the audiophile 2ch have horrible acoustic set ups, even in dedicated rooms. I know of one guy who likes about 30 mins drive from me who would have >$500k retail of gear in his two systems and the main room is all hard surfaces, asymmetric (glass down one side, CD/LP shelves on the other) hard floors and no treatment. The set up is also poor, but it does conform to his idea of what an audiophile system should consist of: a little shrine to the audio gods. It sounds like crap.

So will a room look like a theater if it has 11 speakers and 2 subs on the floor? No.
Mine does; 6 large speakers and 4 large subs.

I am not sure why the speakers should out number the people?
Neither do I, but usually, even with a stereo only there will be more speakers than people in the room at my place.

More often than not I watch movies in a love seat with my 80# dog in my lap. Is that a theater, no.
Why not? My two were variously sitting on me or the ottoman whilst we watched 3 movies last night. The girl loves westerns and runs around barking at the horses.

Is a home theater the same as a living room, no. Does an audiophile listening room have a dozen speakers laying all over, no. A home theater or an audiophile listening room is a single purpose room.
Why can't it have multiple speakers? It's not going to affect the sound when listening in dedicated 2ch mode.

Even without a wife, I have my own WAF so in the last dozen years I've managed to put many thousands of CDs, DVDs, LPs and tapes on a server because the room was looking less like a home than the national archive. Is a national archive a HT or a listening room? No.
Same circumstances and I have migrated everything to a server in the garage because I don't have room for them all. Plus it's easier to scroll though and sort the media. Most people I know have shelves full of movies/CDs/LPs in mixed function rooms. Most don't have the time/space for dedicated rooms, especially those with growing families.

If one has a 80" TV in their living room, along with the babies high chair, and a big sectional not pointed at the TV is that a home theater? Every seat in a HT is a pretty good seat, otherwise it's just a living room with a big TV.
This is how most people with some sort of HT live. And yes, it is a theatre whilst they're using it in that mode. My living room is my theatre, set up well for the space. I can move the seat and couch around if friends stop by and motor the screen up so I can get to the verandah to BBQ. My theatre is better than most people have ever heard, eveen in the worst seat in th room. And it's better than every theatre I've visited, even my favourite, the Cremorne Orpheum.

I have a 65" flat screen TV. I sit on a comfortable love seat, eat and watch news or sports. I'm not dissatisfied, it is for me a dual purpose room. The room is darkened with rather thick drapes. I take my listening much more serious than my watching. Is it a HT? No.
When watching a movie, yes it is a HT.

Should other folks work out something for themselves that works for them and their family? Sure. Is it a HT? Maybe, maybe not?
See previous response.

Most home theaters are just a TV with an untamed herd of speakers and a rats nest of exposed wires all over that don't meet code.
One of my qualifications is as an electrician. Here post outlet there is pretty much no regulation on what a consumer can do. Pretty sure it's the same in most parts of the world.

Why is my nose out of joint, because quality 2 channel audiophile equipment has been largely pushed aside in favor of anything home theater. Speakers now all have tiny 12"x12" footprints so that folks can fill a room with a whole mess of them. Speakers are no longer designed with sonic output as the first criteria, it's now how many can we sell so that they fit in a tiny room? Home Theaters should have flush, or wall mounedt, or behind the screen speakers. I would not care if everyone or no one had a home theater if the trend did not interfere with good speaker design and choices. That is so many speakers today have 5" or smaller mid-range and no woofer.
My mains are 40x60x196cm WDH and my surrounds have a 15" midbass in each of them. All are 3 ay active and I designed them so they can play louder than I can stand, very, very cleanly. It started as a 2ch system and I added the HT components in a side chain.

At least with audiophile listening there is some objective standard, some goal.
I disagree completely. There are no 'standards' in audio reproduction.

I see this as a fad, like pet rocks and hula hoops, driven by a few decades of musically illiterate who grew up thinking iPod was high fidelity and rap is a form of music.
HT is not a fad. Most of the homebuilders here have standard designs with a HT/media room as part of the package, and I've set up a lot of them for people. I agree rap isn't music.

Music has rhythm, harmony and melody as a minimum. Sampling may not be substituted for talent.
Agree to a large part, but sampling can be used to excellent effect. Peter Gabriel as one example. My late partner was a wonderful musician, classically trained as a pianist, but she mastered many instruments and absolutely owned a stage when she sang (she told me she learned this from watching Michael Hutchence: INXS were my school band). I played bass in her band and sometimes a bit of guitar.

If I get your feathers out of alignment please feel free to fire off a well though out and cogent response.
As requested.....

I'm Irish, in a virtual neighborly donnybrook no one should ever get hurt.
I'm Irish one one side and Scots on the other so I understand the concept of a donnybrook well. However, you're down and bleeding in this one.

Until then, peace on Earth to Men of goodwill.
And to you.

PS. I can see that I will draw the ire of some folks with fabulous home theaters I'd die for. Please don't be upset, I wasn't talking about your $250,000 home theater, just the other 99.5%.
This is an enthusiast forum, I think the largest in the world, and amongst enthusiasts you would expect a higher standard of performance and set up than the typical family home with a shared space that is sometimes utilised for the family to watch a flick. I have a mate with a typical family sedan, a Holden Commodore. But his has two turbos, 1000 RW HP, Tremec 6 speed manual, modified suspension etc. People ask him why he did it, especially with the onerous laws here, but the answer is he loves driving his high performance car even at legal speeds. Plus his mum bought him a house so he has no mortgage. Most HT enthusiasts, especially if fortunate to have a dedicated room and a well constructed installation would give the same sort of answer, they love watching movies and want the best experience possible.

A much wordier response than I intended, but I'm shaking off a mongrel of a hangover.
 

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2. Frequencies on the higher bits of the spectrum are more and more directional. To get a reasonable sound stage on my particular cheapo towers I need to put a 1cm wood piece under the fronts to angle them back a set amount by adjusting where under the speakers the wood piece is placed, as well as adjust the toe-in angle meticulously in addition to adjusting the distance to the wall. I would guesstimate that 95% of people don't do this, in 2.0 setups or surround setups.
I would also wager that this is the main reason some HT's and 2.0 systems don't sound good, because the directivity of high frequencies are so high that if each speaker in the HT system is just a tad off, your particular frequency response in a seating location from each speaker will be off target. So voices from certain speakers will not sound precisely like voices from other speakers, putting off the sound stage feeling.
If one were to adjust the speakers in a HT one would be able to get a proper 2.0 sound stage. Whether or not you can adjust all the speakers to have 7.2 or whatever sound stage in all seating locations, I think is a tall order, but not impossible. But in either case, achieving 2.0 sound stage is as easy in a 7.2 system as in a 2.0 system, in regards to adjusting the two speaker locations and angles. Achieving the correct 2.0 sound stage in all seating locations in a HT is a tall order, but that's the case in 2.0 systems as well.
I'm sorry, but you don't understand speaker design. Most speakers on the market use a circa 1" dome for HF which are pretty much 180* dispersion until 10kHz or more. Most horns/WGs being used are 60-90* throughout most of their BW. Set up correctly there is no issue with directivity affecting HF at various seating positions and the idea that it will ruin the reproduction is absurd. Drop by the DIY Speakers and Subs forum and you'll see there are plenty of us doing it today. My surrounds use a 90* WG >1.5kHz and my mains are 60* from about 300Hz up.
 

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To the OP. You're preaching 2 channel nirvana in a predominantly home theater oriented forum. No, home theater isn't a fad, not all speakers are 12" square monoliths. If you want 2 channel goodness go over to Stereophile, Aipudiogon, or AudioKarma. You'll feel right at home, unless your point is to just stir the pot.
 

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I'm sorry, but you don't understand speaker design. Most speakers on the market use a circa 1" dome for HF which are pretty much 180* dispersion until 10kHz or more.
I'm sorry, but you don't understand how sound wavelength affects how it travel through air.
I'll be stopping by the DIY section soon:

Ignore the winter white Norwegian skin tone with 5000K white balance setting and a bit too much exposure. I'll show scale in the eventual build thread.
 

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To the OP. You're preaching 2 channel nirvana in a predominantly home theater oriented forum. No, home theater isn't a fad, not all speakers are 12" square monoliths. If you want 2 channel goodness go over to Stereophile, Aipudiogon, or AudioKarma. You'll feel right at home, unless your point is to just stir the pot.
Yup. It's like home cinema people don't bother with 2 channel (use a AVR) and hifi people have a nice hifi, but then buy low end AVR, sub, surrounds, center.

Remember someone with Linn Aktiv system, bi-amped possibly active tri-amped, pretty nice speakers, and then had crappy low end AVR, crap center, crap sub, crap rears.

I try to get decent gear for both audio systems. I don't know how you could sit down on a $15,000 home cinema, and listen to a $300 hifi, or vice versa $15,000 stereo then listen to a $300 HTIB.
 

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I'm sorry, but you don't understand how sound wavelength affects how it travel through air. .
Sorry to disappoint you but I do. I've been designing speakers for home, install and mobile PA for a couple of decades using all sorts of horns and WGs, and I know how they work and don't need some newb to tell me otherwise. I don't need pics of what one looks like when I already have many here. You added nothing to make your point, so I guess there is none.
 

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Sorry to disappoint you but I do.
Oh you do do you? I guess you then own AFMG software already and can show us what happens when you model a single source high frequency sound in a room. http://focus.afmg.eu/

I was born without knowledge and my brain physically do not consume enough joules of energy per day to have accumulated more than a very limited amount of knowledge. For an average person of 50 years that joule amount is the exact amount of energy required to push a Tesla Model S 300 kilometers. Its really rather difficult to be very cocky about ones own sense of knowledge about the universe with that in mind. Having come 300 kilometers on the intellectual path is not very far, and most of that is down to subconscious brain activity, so conscious knowledge is much less.
I am open to the idea that perhaps this high frequency sound wave physics in air does not matter on frequency response, but by adjusting my speakers two degrees I can lose the sound stage illusion, so something is at play.
 

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Oh you do do you? I guess you then own AFMG already and can show us what happens when you model a single source high frequency sound in a room. http://focus.afmg.eu/
What a foolish argument - it's like saying you don't know anything about high performance cars unless you can design a Veyron. I have measurement tools and can use them. I also have a good understanding of room acoustics.

You still haven't added anything to substantiate your point.
 

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What a foolish argument - it's like saying you don't know anything about high performance cars unless you can design a Veyron. I have measurement tools and can use them. I also have a good understanding of room acoustics.

You still haven't added anything to substantiate your point.
The last time I was informed of a phenomenon of physics on this forum I previously did not know existed I went off and learned about it and came back later to reconsider my position. I did not use the person's poor attempt at explaining it to me as an excuse to dismiss it and go about my merry way having spent no calories like evolution intended.
 

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I don't get it

In theory, you can't have the best HT and the best music only system in the same room--the HT stuff needs to reflect sound or absorb sound in specific areas of the room. The music only system has different acoustic requirements which don't follow the HT requirements.

Sooo....in black-and-white terms, the anal OCD answer is no, you can't have them share.

In reality, most people down own a home theater room the size of an actual theater to get the best sound. The compromises start piling up after that. Most HT fans are aware of this so the OCD nature of "audiophiles" don't enter into the system. I've never seen a pile of tube amps, massive cables or other religious artifacts of audiophile dogma in a HT system. Since HT speakers have to have specific dispersion to work properly, no shims to move the speaks angle up 1cm are required. If you need that, maybe it is time to get the narrow image speakers out of the room.

The fad of HT is now 29 years old--Yamaha started it with a HT pre-amp in 1986. Pioneer rolled out an AVR in 1989 and the rest is history. HT has been around longer than that other fad--the internet and I don't see either of them fading away any time soon.

If the selection of speakers at the local hifi store chaps your butt--you can always build your own. I built a 3-way line array for my garage since it was key to eliminate floor/ceiling bounce and still maintain function as a garage. There are plenty of very large, very expensive and very pretty speakers still available to keep the audiophile image going for you. The other option is to take the speakers that you enjoy the sound of the most and have them refinished by craftsmen in the furniture woodworking industry to really make them pop.

It is a little harder these days to buy large speakers for two channel--home theater makes more sense since the VCR, DVD and streaming video have entered the scene. More ways to enjoy your sound system is, IMHO a good thing!

If you want to be really retro==the first audiophiles built their own systems, speakers and amps. So, if you want to be a true audiophile, build your own.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
> I'm Irish one one side and Scots on the other so I understand the concept of a donnybrook well. However, you're down and bleeding in this one.

Then can I get you another cold draft? I'm drinking St. Paulie Girl while I enjoy myself.

I am of the theory that any place, any space, from time to time needs an airing out. It's healthy, and I take a shake off a better virtual punch than many suppose.

I don't take offense easily.

Blessings on Blessings.

And BTW, don't get me on the subject of cars and trucks, I'm not right in the head on those topics, I'm web master and owner of a car club site. ;-)
 
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