Yes composite video (RCA plug) can be better if the external device is not as good as the plasma's excellent comb filter for separating the luminance(B/W) and color signal. For tuner boxes and VCRs this is almost always the case. The best test is to try both, as you did, and then use whichever looks the best! So it is not ununusal at all - it doesn't mean s-video can't be better, just that all other things have to be equal too.
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can RCA's be better than S-Video on Panny Plasma
I installed my new Panny 42" ED Plasma this weekend and initially hooked up the DirecTIVO through my Sony STR-DA1ES receiver to the Plasma with the S-Video connection. I was a little disappointed seeing "boxes" around the edges of the players while watching the basketball game and someone on the forum suggested to me that I should try using the RCA composite connection instead. I did that tonight while watching the Lakers beat the Suns in overtime and, sure enough, the resolution does look better!
How could this be? All the literature and manuals say that the S-Video connection "usually" results in better PQ than the RCA composites, but the opposite appears to be the case in this instance. Someone mentioned that they thought there were some previous threads on this forum with an explanation of why this might be the case, but I haven't been able to find them. Can anybody out there fill me in -- is it just my imagination, or could I really be getting better PQ on my standard definition digital video inputs using the RCA analog cables than the S-Video connections?
How could this be? All the literature and manuals say that the S-Video connection "usually" results in better PQ than the RCA composites, but the opposite appears to be the case in this instance. Someone mentioned that they thought there were some previous threads on this forum with an explanation of why this might be the case, but I haven't been able to find them. Can anybody out there fill me in -- is it just my imagination, or could I really be getting better PQ on my standard definition digital video inputs using the RCA analog cables than the S-Video connections?
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As I don't have my plasma yet, this is mostly theory, but in the case of the TiVo, I would guess that a good chunk has to do with the "picture sharpness" of S-Video compared to composite. As you're dealing with a video decompressor with TiVo, the picture is never quite as good as the original (except DirecTiVo which uses the same stream). My guess is that with the S-Video, the plasma is just going to enhance all of the false edges and artifacts you get from the TiVo. (being a bit of a A/V-phile, it took me a while to get used to this when I first got my TiVo)
I use the composite connection for Dish 500 on my Panny...looks a LOT better than s video. The plasma just does a better job with the signal.
I stopped listening to all the "stats" and "better connection" theories recently and decided to let my eyes do all of the judging. (This is after my bad experience with the Denon 1600 DVD player... high on "stats" but my eyes told me "ugh."
I stopped listening to all the "stats" and "better connection" theories recently and decided to let my eyes do all of the judging. (This is after my bad experience with the Denon 1600 DVD player... high on "stats" but my eyes told me "ugh."
Like others above, I too use composite from our S-Video VCR and LD player because the 3D comb filter on the Panny (I'm guessing my ED model is the same as yours) is just that much superior to most of the Y/C separation circuitry out there.
In my case, the composite signal simply blew away the S-video on LD playback--and once I fixed the Y/C delay to optimize the PDP for composite (the new Pannys now ship optimized for S-video), the results were even better! But the video performance on composite with just a plain old cable signal is vastly superior to either the S-video signal, or an up-sampled component (via Denon 5803) feed. It seemed a bit counterintuitive at first, but you aren't the first person on this board to make this same observation. Enjoy your new Panny!
In my case, the composite signal simply blew away the S-video on LD playback--and once I fixed the Y/C delay to optimize the PDP for composite (the new Pannys now ship optimized for S-video), the results were even better! But the video performance on composite with just a plain old cable signal is vastly superior to either the S-video signal, or an up-sampled component (via Denon 5803) feed. It seemed a bit counterintuitive at first, but you aren't the first person on this board to make this same observation. Enjoy your new Panny!
The comb filter is only used on a composite signal, because thats the only type of signal where color and luminance are combined and need to be separated by the comb filter. S-video uses a separate wire for color and another wire for luminance signal. Component video further separates the color signal into red and green color difference signals plus the luminance signal. So thats why only with composite will the comb filter be activated. If you use s-video or component you are at the mercy of the electronics in the external device, which except for a DVD player, is usally not as good.
"what do you mean by "fix[ing] the Y/C delay to optimize the PDP for composite"
First let me qualify my comment by saying that my panel's composite input had a Y/C delay PROBLEM. Although the overall PQ was much less noisy and noticeably sharper than via s-video, the colors along the left edge of all objects/people were "smeared" to the right, making it look like someone had applied dark green makeup to the left side of everyone's face and wiped it to the right. It was very distracting and VERY noticeable on both LD and cable sources. I later confirmed with a bowtie pattern from Video Essentials that the composite Y/C timing was indeed off. I suspect my experience is not typical of other Panny owners as I haven't seen any other complaints on this board regarding composite performance of the PW5. However, it all started because I could objectively observe an image quality problem; I didn't need any kind of calibration test to tell me something was wrong! If you personally don't notice any PROBLEMS with your composite performance, I wouldn't encourage you to go adjusting anything or looking for problems--it's kind of like the chroma bug on DVD players, until people are told what to go looking for, many of them had no idea there was even a problem to be concerned about!
In my particular case, and after some digging on this forum, I discovered that a lot of PW3 users in the past had problems with their s-video performance because Panny was shipping those panels with Y/C timing optimized for composite sources. The change to optimize the PW3's timing for s-video was a service menu adjustment deep in the bowels of the panel's EPROM settings. Another forum member graciously walked me through the process of altering the delay settings--after some earnest warnings about the dangers "exploring" the service menu--but the settings and data ranges for the PW5 panel are vastly different than those for the 2-year old PW3 so his procedure couldn't help me (and I wasn't about to go changing register settings at random hoping I just happened across the right values no matter how bad the picture was). I was all set to simply live with the problem but it just nagged at me more and more every time I watched a cable broadcast or spun up a laserdisc. I contacted Panny service but they said any user adjustments in the service menu might void the 1-year warranty--strike 2.
Fortunately, after addressing the same type of problems with another Panny plasma at work, I had new procedures/settings in hand for a PW4 which I hoped would translate to the very similar PW5. However, I came to learn that there are still differences between service menu settings/data ranges despite the similar electronics in the PW4 and PW5 panels--so those of you who happen to come across a service hint for the PW4, DO NOT use those settings to adjust the PW5 or you could shut down your display! In the end, I finally got the proper settings for the new panel and made the adjustments, first to fix the plasma at work (nice when your employer self-insures so I had a chance to test the procedures out), then later for the one I've got at home--surprisingly, the Y/C delay fix for all my troubles at home was just one value lower than the factory-standard setting. It was a scary proposition, and I may not have a valid 1-year warranty any more, but all my composite sources are rock solid and finely detailed and that's what I had been hoping for all along.
Again however, if you don't see a problem, chances are you don't have one and I don't recommend you fiddling with anything in the service menu if your plasma is already operating trouble-free. Enjoy your new display.
First let me qualify my comment by saying that my panel's composite input had a Y/C delay PROBLEM. Although the overall PQ was much less noisy and noticeably sharper than via s-video, the colors along the left edge of all objects/people were "smeared" to the right, making it look like someone had applied dark green makeup to the left side of everyone's face and wiped it to the right. It was very distracting and VERY noticeable on both LD and cable sources. I later confirmed with a bowtie pattern from Video Essentials that the composite Y/C timing was indeed off. I suspect my experience is not typical of other Panny owners as I haven't seen any other complaints on this board regarding composite performance of the PW5. However, it all started because I could objectively observe an image quality problem; I didn't need any kind of calibration test to tell me something was wrong! If you personally don't notice any PROBLEMS with your composite performance, I wouldn't encourage you to go adjusting anything or looking for problems--it's kind of like the chroma bug on DVD players, until people are told what to go looking for, many of them had no idea there was even a problem to be concerned about!
In my particular case, and after some digging on this forum, I discovered that a lot of PW3 users in the past had problems with their s-video performance because Panny was shipping those panels with Y/C timing optimized for composite sources. The change to optimize the PW3's timing for s-video was a service menu adjustment deep in the bowels of the panel's EPROM settings. Another forum member graciously walked me through the process of altering the delay settings--after some earnest warnings about the dangers "exploring" the service menu--but the settings and data ranges for the PW5 panel are vastly different than those for the 2-year old PW3 so his procedure couldn't help me (and I wasn't about to go changing register settings at random hoping I just happened across the right values no matter how bad the picture was). I was all set to simply live with the problem but it just nagged at me more and more every time I watched a cable broadcast or spun up a laserdisc. I contacted Panny service but they said any user adjustments in the service menu might void the 1-year warranty--strike 2.
Fortunately, after addressing the same type of problems with another Panny plasma at work, I had new procedures/settings in hand for a PW4 which I hoped would translate to the very similar PW5. However, I came to learn that there are still differences between service menu settings/data ranges despite the similar electronics in the PW4 and PW5 panels--so those of you who happen to come across a service hint for the PW4, DO NOT use those settings to adjust the PW5 or you could shut down your display! In the end, I finally got the proper settings for the new panel and made the adjustments, first to fix the plasma at work (nice when your employer self-insures so I had a chance to test the procedures out), then later for the one I've got at home--surprisingly, the Y/C delay fix for all my troubles at home was just one value lower than the factory-standard setting. It was a scary proposition, and I may not have a valid 1-year warranty any more, but all my composite sources are rock solid and finely detailed and that's what I had been hoping for all along.
Again however, if you don't see a problem, chances are you don't have one and I don't recommend you fiddling with anything in the service menu if your plasma is already operating trouble-free. Enjoy your new display.
Fredwooch et. al.
How does SD, in particular sporting events, look on the new Panny. I'm having a 'discussion' with my wife. She is claiming that the SD signal on the plasma isn't that great. Basically, that a CRT tube is much better. We primarily watch SD (75%). I watch sports, she wants to make sure Katie Couric "looks normal" and the Prime Time shows are of good quality.
To some degree I have to agree with her as everything we've seen at the B&M stores has looked pretty poor. Basically, I think the feed is week and the Plasma set-up is probably not dialed-in. However, I have to think that once everything is set up correctly, that the Plasma picture would win.
Can anyone confirm this and/or add some weight to my argument with her? Also, of the pioneer/Panny/Fujitsu models, is one particularly better at SD display? I guess it comes down to which has the better scaller???
How does SD, in particular sporting events, look on the new Panny. I'm having a 'discussion' with my wife. She is claiming that the SD signal on the plasma isn't that great. Basically, that a CRT tube is much better. We primarily watch SD (75%). I watch sports, she wants to make sure Katie Couric "looks normal" and the Prime Time shows are of good quality.
To some degree I have to agree with her as everything we've seen at the B&M stores has looked pretty poor. Basically, I think the feed is week and the Plasma set-up is probably not dialed-in. However, I have to think that once everything is set up correctly, that the Plasma picture would win.
Can anyone confirm this and/or add some weight to my argument with her? Also, of the pioneer/Panny/Fujitsu models, is one particularly better at SD display? I guess it comes down to which has the better scaller???
You'll probably hear lots of people on this board say either the Fuji or Panny has the best scaler, with comments that Panny is best for SD being very common. I can't speak to Pio's performance as I don't have one, or to Fuji's as I've never seen one, so I wouldn't presume to say one is better than the other. However, I can attest to the fact that with our own viewing (about 50% SD, 50% DVD) on a Panny ED monitor, a good quality composite source, with a good SD signal behind it, and calibrated with a "standard" test disc (VE, Avia, THX Optimode, etc.), all looks quite impressive, much more so than on our 35" interlaced CRT monitor. The "Just" mode on the Panny is also very effective at keeping the picture from distorting too badly on 4:3 material (so as not to overaccentuate the imperfections that are already easier to see now that you're taking a fair to midland SD signal and blowing it up to 42" diagonal).
DougA:
I've only got one day's experience on the Panny ED Plasma, but in my mind and my wife's it blows away the picture quality on our Sony 43" (which is a projection version, not CRT). Most of our viewing is from DirecTIVO, so it is not a particularly great SD quality source. I watched the Lakers game last night, however, and it was just fantastic, and this morning we watched Katie for the first time and it was as if she was standing on the other side of a pane of glass looking into our room through our Plasma display. There is definitely a little distortion on the edges of the 4:3 material using the "Just" mode (which bothers my wife more than me), but the picture is definitely sharper and with more detail and vividness than anything I've seen on a CRT. I think you've got to be careful making comparisons based on some store displays because in the not-top-of-the-line places, either their feeds or their setups don't seem to get the best out of the equipment.
I've only got one day's experience on the Panny ED Plasma, but in my mind and my wife's it blows away the picture quality on our Sony 43" (which is a projection version, not CRT). Most of our viewing is from DirecTIVO, so it is not a particularly great SD quality source. I watched the Lakers game last night, however, and it was just fantastic, and this morning we watched Katie for the first time and it was as if she was standing on the other side of a pane of glass looking into our room through our Plasma display. There is definitely a little distortion on the edges of the 4:3 material using the "Just" mode (which bothers my wife more than me), but the picture is definitely sharper and with more detail and vividness than anything I've seen on a CRT. I think you've got to be careful making comparisons based on some store displays because in the not-top-of-the-line places, either their feeds or their setups don't seem to get the best out of the equipment.
After reading this thread I went home and switched cables from my Samsung TS-160 to my Panny PWD5 and saw no difference at all. The composite picture seemed every bit as good as the s-video. I tried sat, digital and hd sources.
Is there a particularly good source for noticing the differences?
Perhaps the Samsung box is pretty good with s-video.
PDS
Is there a particularly good source for noticing the differences?
Perhaps the Samsung box is pretty good with s-video.
PDS
Not sure about the Samsung's s-video performance, but in my case, I have a S-VHS VCR that has a very lackluster comb filter. I noticed the most significant PQ difference when I played back a video tape of recorded broadcast cable, even more so on SP than LP settings. On s-video: noisy, fuzzy, and a bit washed out; on composite: detailed, colorful, vibrant, and much less, to near zero, noise. LD performance was similar, though not to the same degree.
It seems like some people (including me) report seeing a bigger difference favoring composite the crappier the source signal seems to be; though that's just my casual review of the posts here, I certainly don't have any proof to back that up. Consider yourself fortunate if your Samsung is doing a good job of separating Y/C signals because the comb filter in your Panny is already one of the best going right now!
It seems like some people (including me) report seeing a bigger difference favoring composite the crappier the source signal seems to be; though that's just my casual review of the posts here, I certainly don't have any proof to back that up. Consider yourself fortunate if your Samsung is doing a good job of separating Y/C signals because the comb filter in your Panny is already one of the best going right now!
Quote:
Ummm, VHS is recorded color under. That is, YC for both normal and SVHS. The comb filter isn't be in the path on the S-Vid output (at least it shouldn't be).
Laserdisc is another matter though. It is a composite system and as such, either the LD player or the plasma has to perform YC separation. LD players typically used pretty bad circuitry for this and the display device just about always looks better being fed composite.
Also, the Samsung isn't separating anything. In the case of HDTV, it derives the S-Vid from component. Composite is then produced from the S-Vid signal. So the Samsung as a good composite encoder. I believe DirecTv is a similar situation.
| Originally posted by Snail's_Pace Not sure about the Samsung's s-video performance, but in my case, I have a S-VHS VCR that has a very lackluster comb filter. I noticed the most significant PQ difference when I played back a video tape of recorded broadcast cable, even more so on SP than LP settings. On s-video: noisy, fuzzy, and a bit washed out; on composite: detailed, colorful, vibrant, and much less, to near zero, noise. LD performance was similar, though not to the same degree. It seems like some people (including me) report seeing a bigger difference favoring composite the crappier the source signal seems to be; though that's just my casual review of the posts here, I certainly don't have any proof to back that up. Consider yourself fortunate if your Samsung is doing a good job of separating Y/C signals because the comb filter in your Panny is already one of the best going right now! |
Laserdisc is another matter though. It is a composite system and as such, either the LD player or the plasma has to perform YC separation. LD players typically used pretty bad circuitry for this and the display device just about always looks better being fed composite.
Also, the Samsung isn't separating anything. In the case of HDTV, it derives the S-Vid from component. Composite is then produced from the S-Vid signal. So the Samsung as a good composite encoder. I believe DirecTv is a similar situation.
Quote:
Well, I have the th-42pwd5uz and can honestly state that the SD looks much better that my 50" Mits VS-50705. Not as detailed as DVD, duh, and looks a little "softer" than the old Mits, but, I watched a little golf over the weekend. Previously, when the ball was in flight you could barely, barely make it out and on a pan out shot when it hit the green, couldn't hardly see it. Now no problem seeing the ball in flight nor when it hits the green. On not so "closeups" of the players the faces do not look as detailed (probably due to the resolution of the panel itself) however, on closeups the detail is AMAZING. AS for DVD, for get about it. AWESOME, AWESOME, AWESOME. Crystal clear and very detailed.
One thing I did find was that as I was hooking up the plasma in my usual quick time setup mode, I noticed when watching the Sat and Cable that I would be able to see very faint scrolling lines going from the bottom to the top of the plasma. I checked all the grounds as I thought it may be a ground loop or something similar. Couldn't find a thing. Put a ground loop isolator on the cable for SD, no change. Then it happened.
Last night I rearranged all the equipment and wires for both audio and video. Put the VCR and Sat boxes one under the other on one side of the cabinet (salamander synergy twin 30), receiver on the other side of the cabinet with the DVD and CD player. Grouped all the power cords together and grouped all the video cables together and all the audio cables together. And what do you know the scrolling lines weren't there anymore. Hahaha.
Plasmas are very delicate electronic devices that need a somewhat pure power source to run optimally. My advice, if you are going to get one, is to make sure that no power cord crosses any video/audio cord by any less than 2". This will alleviate "noise" at least it did with mine, plus it looks much more professional.
| Originally posted by DougA Fredwooch et. al. How does SD, in particular sporting events, look on the new Panny. I'm having a 'discussion' with my wife. She is claiming that the SD signal on the plasma isn't that great. Basically, that a CRT tube is much better. We primarily watch SD (75%). I watch sports, she wants to make sure Katie Couric "looks normal" and the Prime Time shows are of good quality. To some degree I have to agree with her as everything we've seen at the B&M stores has looked pretty poor. Basically, I think the feed is week and the Plasma set-up is probably not dialed-in. However, I have to think that once everything is set up correctly, that the Plasma picture would win. Can anyone confirm this and/or add some weight to my argument with her? Also, of the pioneer/Panny/Fujitsu models, is one particularly better at SD display? I guess it comes down to which has the better scaller??? |
One thing I did find was that as I was hooking up the plasma in my usual quick time setup mode, I noticed when watching the Sat and Cable that I would be able to see very faint scrolling lines going from the bottom to the top of the plasma. I checked all the grounds as I thought it may be a ground loop or something similar. Couldn't find a thing. Put a ground loop isolator on the cable for SD, no change. Then it happened.
Last night I rearranged all the equipment and wires for both audio and video. Put the VCR and Sat boxes one under the other on one side of the cabinet (salamander synergy twin 30), receiver on the other side of the cabinet with the DVD and CD player. Grouped all the power cords together and grouped all the video cables together and all the audio cables together. And what do you know the scrolling lines weren't there anymore. Hahaha.
Plasmas are very delicate electronic devices that need a somewhat pure power source to run optimally. My advice, if you are going to get one, is to make sure that no power cord crosses any video/audio cord by any less than 2". This will alleviate "noise" at least it did with mine, plus it looks much more professional.
Quote:
The most glaring example of a difference is dot crawl. A bad comb filter results in terrible dot crawl. You can see dot crawl when you've got a bright solid color that remains static on the screen -- example: when you watch the talking heads on the Today Show, take a look at the bright colored box at the bottom of the screen where they put captions. At the border between the live video of the talking head and the bright solid color, if you're using a bad comb filter, you will see very noticeable hash marks (ticks going across that look like this: l l l l l l l l l l). If the comb filter is good, that border will be razor sharp.
I don't know what you mean when you say you tiried composite with HD sources -- you shouldn't be using composite or s-video for any HD sources.
| Originally posted by PDSway After reading this thread I went home and switched cables from my Samsung TS-160 to my Panny PWD5 and saw no difference at all. The composite picture seemed every bit as good as the s-video. I tried sat, digital and hd sources. Is there a particularly good source for noticing the differences? Perhaps the Samsung box is pretty good with s-video. PDS |
I don't know what you mean when you say you tiried composite with HD sources -- you shouldn't be using composite or s-video for any HD sources.
I have a 503cmx. Directv looks better on composite, PS2 looks better on s-video.
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