[Roshy]

I have ordered an Epik empire sub but can't decide on the other 7 speakers.. these are my 3 I've narrowed it down to:


1) Martin Logan (~4800):

2 x EM-ESL

1 x EM-C2

4 x Motion 4


2) Chase Home Theater (~$2600):

7 x SHO-10


3) Klipsch (~$4300):

2 x RF-82 II

1 x RC-62 II

4 x RS-52 II or maybe 4 x RS-42 II


Here is a layout of my room and where the speakers will go:

For the Klipsch, is it ok to use dipoles on the rear surrounds? If not, then what would you suggest for rears if I went with Klipsch?


Also, should I be able to use any of these with a mid-high end receiver such as Denon AVR-3312CI, yamaha a2000/3000, marantz SR6005??


Thanks for any help.

 

[skidawgz]

I don't feel I know enough about dipoles to properly answer your first question, so I am skipping it

.


You can run any of those speakers with those receivers. Martin Logan Motions are 4ohm speakers and the ESL series are 6ohm. I've ran those ML speakers through Marantz, Onkyo, Yamaha, Denon and Pioneer speakers and they all have no problems.


I did a lot of listening on the EM-ESL because I have considered buying them, still undecided which speakers to go with.

 

[Roshy]

I think I'm definetely leaning towards the Klipsch's or CHT right now, just trying to figure out what to use as rear surrounds for the Klipsch since I've read that Dipoles shouldn't be used as rear surrounds, just side ones.

 

[schan1269]

Where did you read you can't use dipoles as REAR surrounds?


Somebody needs a bitchslap.


Do you understand the difference between dipole and bipole? (and why some speakers come with a switch to change from one to the other...)


Now, for YOUR room design you should NOT use rear dipoles., cause your rear speakers are NOT right behind the people sitting on the couch, YOU(again, YOU...not EVERYBODY) should not even use rear bipoles, again....because yours aren't on the BACK wall...


All 4 of your surrounds are on the SIDE wall. Now, if you would move all 4 of them to PROPER placement for di/bipoles(meaning, exactly even with the couches, or...the surrounds where they are, then the REAR surrounds equidistant on the back wall, which you can't do cause of the door to the outside), then yes you could do bi/dipoles in all 4 positions.


And by the way, if you DID do proper placement of the speakers even to both rows of couches, you should do 2 pairs of dipoles. In your case, the way it is now, your surounds "should be" dipoles and the REAR should be direct.


Here is the scenario I would do...


Front:

LCR(just pick one)


surrounds...times 2 pairs. Put two pairs of dipoles in. Each pair even with each couch(run them off a 2 pair speaker switch) And if that means hanging one from the ceiling(on a pole mount), so be it.


rear surrounds...directional, cause you can't place di/bipoles correctly.

 

[Roshy]

I placed those speakers there accoring to the THX specs... sides 90-110 degrees, rears 135-150 degrees. The rears are on the back wall..

The angles are based on my seat, the ones in the front row in the middle

And I read you weren't supposed to use either one as rear surrounds (only heard it in two places, they both stated that the rear channel were supposed to be more directional than the side surrounds). I know nothing about this stuff, so I just go by what I read, if I read BS, then I learn BS

I tried to find the articles again, but I couldn't...


I think I read too many things, and eventually everyone disagrees with each other and then I get confused, and make a decision based on obscure details... I wish it was easier topick a set of speakers...

 

[schan1269]

It is easy to buy speakers.


Go to a store that sells the ones you want and say...


"Make it worth my while to put these in my car."


If you don't like the replay from the store with the ML's, go to the next one for the Klipsch(although I assume here, you mean BB).


And THX is ONE set of guidelines.


Dolby has theirs.

Audyssey has theirs.

 

[Roshy]

I don't mean its hard to actually purchase them, I mean figure out what to actually buy. I think I've convinced myself off the MLs... and decising between Klipsch and CHT.


Also don't know about the placement or type of my surrounds now that you said they are wrong...


I can't find anywhere on Klipsch's website that says whether the RF-52's can be dipole or bipole, I can't see it even mention those words on the product page or the "reference manual".

 

[schan1269]

I didn't say you were wrong. Should do, does not mean the correct way.


The RF 52 is a tower speaker. It is monopole.


The RS 42 I'm going to assume is a bipole*. The problem with a "horn loaded bi-pole" is it is an oxymoron.


If you were Klipsch would you describe as speaker as being a "diffuse directional speaker"??? (which is exactly what they would have done calling it a "horn-loaded bipole")


The first time I saw the RS series Klipsch I snickered...


*assuming bipole, cause if those were dipole...they would really be trying to have it both ways...


Little help to clue you in here...


You horn load a speaker to create "directional sound"

You make a speaker bipole to "diffuse sound"


Diffuse and directional go together like fire and water, oil and vinegar...


Edit:


Now if you do decide on the Klipsch, I would get a pair of those for the surrounds, then stick to a regular RB for the rear surrounds. If the RS are bipole, then the surround info can point AT each couch...which, ironically, works in your room.


So, an amended Klipsch set...


RF 82 x2

RS 52 x2

RB 51 x2

RC 62

 

[ifor]

Given the seating distances from the seats to the walls, I would suggest using bipoles for all the surrounds. You want as diffuse sound as possible seeing how close you might be to the speaker. I would also place them a couple feet above the listening positions to further diffuse the sound.


I think the biggest difficulty are the rear doors which force the rear surrounds farther apart then what is commonly accepted.


The THX and Dolby specs are nice IF you have the distances away from the seating location.


Might I add Triads to your mix? Look at 3 InRoom Bronze LCRs for the fronts and 4 OnWall Bronze Surrounds for the rears.

 

[Smigro]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Roshy /forum/post/0


I don't mean its hard to actually purchase them, I mean figure out what to actually buy. I think I've convinced myself off the MLs... and decising between Klipsch and CHT.


Also don't know about the placement or type of my surrounds now that you said they are wrong...


I can't find anywhere on Klipsch's website that says whether the RF-52's can be dipole or bipole, I can't see it even mention those words on the product page or the "reference manual".

You should look into the new Elemental Design cinema series speakers. There is some good intro pricing for these although they are not even out yet so no one really knows how they sound. Check out the CHT vs eD[c] thread in here.

 

[psgcdn]



Quote:
Originally Posted by schan1269 /forum/post/20816311


Little help to clue you in here...


You horn load a speaker to create "directional sound"

No you don't. You horn-load a driver to increase the coupling between the driver and the air, thus dramatically improving efficiency and sensitivity and reducing driver excursion.

 

[Roshy]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. I think I'm going to stick with directs for the back though, since the rear seats will be used maybe 10% of the time, it will most likely be me in there myself 80% of the time, with my wife joining me once in a while to complain how loud it is, ha. So I'd like to make it sound as good as possible for the front middle seat and the more I read about rear surrounds in a smaller room, the more I'm swayed against a bipole or dipole for it.

 

[mjg100]

Be sure and pull the mains away from the side walls and adding absorption on the side wall s to catch the first reflections would help also along with bass traps.

 

[Roshy]

Also, am I not reading all the speaker placement charts correctly? Why does everyone keep saying my rears aren't placed properly? They are 135 degrees from the listening position. Listening position being the front middle seat. Again, I don't care as much about the rear seats being completely proper. Thy won't be used often.

 

[zieglj01]

If you are 135-150 in the back, you will be OK - you still need to try and pull

the front speakers away from the back and side walls, for better results.

Some good advice was in this thread
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1352429

 

[FOH]



Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 /forum/post/20817068


Be sure and pull the mains away from the side walls and adding absorption on the side wall s to catch the first reflections would help also along with bass traps.

Big +1 on this aspect.


Gert the L&R away from the boundaries, and address the lateral reflections in some manner.


Additionally, in my opinion, prior to implementing a full 7.1 rig, I'd explore a 5.1 approach, with direct radiating surrounds in the back corners aimed in at the primary LP. And yes, the eD Cinema line sure appears very promising.


The Empire sub will offer strong performance, however saving the extra on the rear surrounds, and focusing on a smoother, stronger sub system should offer significantly better ROI. A second sub will potentially lower distortion levels, stronger and more realistic playback levels, and the overwhelmingly most important aspect, a nice smooth and even response. Some measure of EQ, and LF optimization would be my focus, prior to adding extra surrounds. Rear surrounds should be secondary to smooth, and capable LF response in my opinion.


7.1 does offer some improvement in some scenarios, however the vast majority of releases are mastered/mixed in 5.1. Proper LF in room offers a much more pleasurable experience than adding the other two surrounds in my experience. Just my 2 cents.


Good luck