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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I'm currently running a PB13 Ultra (BASH) along with an MBM-12 nearfield in my 2100 cu ft sealed space. The system is 100% movies. There are two options that I have decided to choose between. Adding a second PB13 would cost me roughly $2200 including upgrading my BASH to a Sledge. Another plus is the piano black finish of the PB13 is damn sexy and stands out in my small space (14x15). Opting for dual Submersive HP (master/slave) would cost me around $4250. Unfortunately, where I am located it would be tough to sell an Ultra so I would probably add it to the dedicated music system in the works. However, if I opt for the dual PB13 I'm likely going to question how much better the submersives would perform. Considering the cu footage of my space, will I likely experience better overall performance from the Submersives? Also, why no info on the Submersive on Data-Bass?


The second sub will be placed to the left:


 

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RobZ said:
I'm currently running a PB13 Ultra (BASH) ... Adding a second PB13 would cost me roughly $2200 including upgrading my BASH to a Sledge. Another plus is the piano black finish of the PB13 is damn sexy and stands out in my small space (14x15). Opting for dual Submersive HP (master/slave) would cost me around $4250.
IMO, all of that points to a second PB13-Ultra.
 

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In a room of ~2,000 cubic feet or under, I'd get the second PB-13 seeing as you're already using an MBM. You'll have too much bass as it is.

Get a Submersive instead for the "music only" system to try one out...see, I saved you some cash.
 

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Save even more cash and skip the Sledge amp upgrade on your existing PB13. Every time I correspond with SVS about changing out the amps on my subs they tell me its not worth the money and that the difference in performance is negligible.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
In a room of ~2,000 cubic feet or under, I'd get the second PB-13 seeing as you're already using an MBM. You'll have too much bass as it is.

Get a Submersive instead for the "music only" system to try one out...see, I saved you some cash.
I think with dual submersives I would take the MBM out of the system. That I could sell and ship but the PB13 would have to stay. If it were an SB13 it would be easier to opt to integrate into the music system.
 

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If you're looking for a more detailed answer...the SubM will have much greater output capability above ~40Hz and below ~15Hz. Because of its shallow 2nd order roll-off, it will dig deeper in room. There's also the matter of transient response which favors the Seaton sub. The only area where the PB13 will have an advantage is output at port tune; however, in the grand scheme of real world source material as opposed to 20Hz sine waves, it's not much to write home about.
Fwiw, I went from a single pb13 in my 17x12x9 room to dual DIY subs similar in form and factor to the submersive HP (by no means am I saying it is as dialled in as Mark does with his subs). While I certainly get more output below 15hz, I don't notice much else different as I was getting plenty of output regardless in 15hz tune. Dual pb13s likely would have been a bit better but even a single was getting me reference in that size room. But they were too large.

All I am saying is that I doubt anyone would notice a significant difference. In a blind test anyhow.

Having said that, I have zero doubt the op would notice anything but a significant difference if he does ante up the cash and buy dual subms (insert any sub here). Happens time and time again. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Save even more cash and skip the Sledge amp upgrade on your existing PB13. Every time I correspond with SVS about changing out the amps on my subs they tell me its not worth the money and that the difference in performance is negligible.
They told me the same but after reading this post by Ed Mullen: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...ial-svs-ultra-13-thread-326.html#post21993941 I decided it would be better to pick up a discounted Sledge if I go the dual SVS route.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Fwiw, I went from a single pb13 in my 17x12x9 room to dual DIY subs similar in form and factor to the submersive HP (by no means am I saying it is as dialled in as Mark does with his subs). While I certainly get more output below 15hz, I don't notice much else different as I was getting plenty of output regardless in 15hz tune. Dual pb13s likely would have been a bit better but even a single was getting me reference in that size room. But they were too large.

All I am saying is that I doubt anyone would notice a significant difference. In a blind test anyhow.

Having said that, I have zero doubt the op would notice anything but a significant difference if he does ante up the cash and buy dual subms (insert any sub here). Happens time and time again. ;)
Yeah that happens all to often. Not me though. For example, I recently swapped my RS20 for a RS4910. After 30 hours of use I'd advise others that unless they have a one screen width viewing distance or closer (pixel visibility) I'd keep the RS20 as the performance improvement is only incremental in my opinion (except for increased lumens at expense of louder fan noise).
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Are you stuck just on these two subwoofers? Lot's of other great options out there. HSU, PSA, Reaction Audio, Rythmik. You could pick up a pair of F25's. I'd recommend a pair of FV15HP's, but damn I think they would blow you out of your room. I think a pair of F25's would kick [email protected]@ in that room.

Yeah Ive looked at many including Funk and JTR but decided its betwern keeping SVS or opting for Seaton.
 

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I'm curious as to what you think you are missing with your current setup. What don't you like about it (uneven bass, not enough output, doesn't reproduce music to your satisfaction, etc.)?
 
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I was an SVS lifer going back to the late '90's. The latest I had were dual PB13's and they were great however, through my last upgrade'itus attack, I decided to venture out. I ended up with Dual Submersives and it's a night and difference in my room. They hit harder, go lower without being boomy.., in a word 'articulate'. For a true test go no further than the Bluray Edge of Tomorrow. In the opening collage there is are a series of different bass tones, 6 distinct tones if memory serves. If you are not hearing each of them independently then you are not getting the most out of your subs. Each tone rattles something distinctly different in my house AND there's one that I can't actually hear but the door frames and cabinets go nuts!

Yes, there were around $4500 but someone will have to pry them out of my cold, dead fingers.
 

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Another member on here madhuski recently downsized from a Submersive HP to an FV15HP and he said it sounds just as tight and controlled as the Submersive. To me that's saying a lot....
My point exactly. How often have we seen a member swapping from high performance subwoofer X to Y and saying "well, that didn't work out and I think the one I had before was better", or even "meh, not much of a difference". Never would be my guess?

Properly calibrated in-room, outside of at their limits I wouldn't see much difference between most of these subs. E.g., with my dual DIY subs, they can pressurize the room a lot more than the PB13 did with content below 18hz. Above that it gets a bit more difficult to discern. Maybe shot gun blasts are better, but I'd have to go back to my notes as I don't recall a night a day difference even with duals during say the shot gun scene of Open Range for instance. My Pb13 was boomy too, until I used the correct calibration settings on the sub to tame the rising in-room response I was getting (I get a lot of room gain from 30hz down). After I spent hours calibrating the FR to be as close to the FR of my AV15H dual opposed subs from ~20hz up, they sounded more alike then not. Except what I seemed to recall being a distinct sonic signature of the Aluminum cones of the AV15H drivers, though even that I can't say for sure as this is going back a few years.

Heck, when I tried out my SB13 sub (that I still have, though it sits in a box in my basement at the moment until I move into a new house) I didn't notice much difference between that and my duals, except that it ran out of steam around -10 or so to db reference in my small-ish room.

After doing a blind test of numerous "high-end" subs in the same room at the same time (with a poor attempt of eq-ing them all the same, but an attempt none the less), I'm much less inclined to recommend anyone go from one high end sub to another given how difficult it was to discern differences even between ported and sealed subs for that matter. I'd focus first on the room and on getting the most out of what you have.

RobZ - can you post a room response? DRussell is asking the right questions, what is it you feel you're lacking?
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
I'm curious as to what you think you are missing with your current setup. What don't you like about it (uneven bass, not enough output, doesn't reproduce music to your satisfaction, etc.)?

In general I think adding the second sub will help even out the bass within the room and provide the midbass output missing that the MBM is providing. There's little room to arrange a single sub in a better location unless I place it nearfiled behind the seating on the riser (which I'd prefer not to do). Don't get me wrong, theres a level of punchiness to the midbass that is there when it's tuned to 20hz and the receiver sub output crossed to 120hz but I still feel as if the output can be improved and I'd prefer being able to experience sub 20hz. XT32 helped a bit but I'm pretty sure dual subs would be optimal. If I opt for two ultras I would probably be able to tune to 16hz.

Room layout:



Theres exactly 32 in. behind the seating (recliners slide forward when extending seatback)
 

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I really like your home theater! Nicely done.

Yes, two subs would certainly smooth out your bass over a larger area. You obviously know your subs, thus you realize that Seaton makes one of the best subs on the market. You also know that you can order a second PB13 and return it if it isn't doing what you had hoped (the easiest and cheapest alternative). But both PSA (free shipping like SVS) and Reaction Audio have some exciting new subs that may surprise you, so at least give them a look (I think you'll be surprised). Same for Hsu. And the venerable Rythmik FV15HP should also be a serious consideration. Should you decide to go with Seaton, PSA, Hsu or Rythmik, I'm sure you'd have no problem selling your PB13.
 

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I would say just another SVS since you already have one. But if it was me and I had the opportunity of either pair, I would choose the Seaton. Just reading the blind sub reviews, its always comes out at top or near the top. But remember, with Master/ Slave, you loose some separate tuning ability since you system will see both subs as one. I dont think you can adjust the phase on each sub, or distant tweak on each sub. But I never had a Master / Slave so I cant say 100%. But its something to look into if you think that could be a problem. It shouldn't be a problem, but I just wanted to make sure you are aware of that.
 
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My point exactly. How often have we seen a member swapping from high performance subwoofer X to Y and saying "well, that didn't work out and I think the one I had before was better", or even "meh, not much of a difference". Never would be my guess?

Properly calibrated in-room, outside of at their limits I wouldn't see much difference between most of these subs. E.g., with my dual DIY subs, they can pressurize the room a lot more than the PB13 did with content below 18hz. Above that it gets a bit more difficult to discern. Maybe shot gun blasts are better, but I'd have to go back to my notes as I don't recall a night a day difference even with duals during say the shot gun scene of Open Range for instance. My Pb13 was boomy too, until I used the correct calibration settings on the sub to tame the rising in-room response I was getting (I get a lot of room gain from 30hz down). After I spent hours calibrating the FR to be as close to the FR of my AV15H dual opposed subs from ~20hz up, they sounded more alike then not. Except what I seemed to recall being a distinct sonic signature of the Aluminum cones of the AV15H drivers, though even that I can't say for sure as this is going back a few years.

Heck, when I tried out my SB13 sub (that I still have, though it sits in a box in my basement at the moment until I move into a new house) I didn't notice much difference between that and my duals, except that it ran out of steam around -10 or so to db reference in my small-ish room.

After doing a blind test of numerous "high-end" subs in the same room at the same time (with a poor attempt of eq-ing them all the same, but an attempt none the less), I'm much less inclined to recommend anyone go from one high end sub to another given how difficult it was to discern differences even between ported and sealed subs for that matter. I'd focus first on the room and on getting the most out of what you have.

RobZ - can you post a room response? DRussell is asking the right questions, what is it you feel you're lacking?



I agree totally. If the subs are even in the same category, it really doesn't matter which is chosen. Each and every room is different so those numbers people look at with done mean much at all. Unless you have both those subs hooked up in the same room at the same time, then the difference...providing you can hear one at all...really doesn't matter.


People here have posted how much of an upgrade the VTF 15H MK2 is over the MK1 and I have no doubt that it is when you look at the numbers but I'm not convinced at this point that having two those in my home theater would make a difference over the dual MK1's I currently have. There are numbers and then there is the Real World Experience. I believe I would have to jump to a couple great 18 inchers to feel it's worth taking the time to sell what I have, take a loss, and then order new subs.


But hey, we do what we must to justify the money we spend.


TC, if you're going to upgrade, spend the lesser amount and I'm pretty sure you won't notice any difference between that and if you went the more expensive route.
 

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Going off the ULF calculator, Both of your subs would get you to 16 Hz ref. The Ultras would get you above Ref at 20 Hz. The Seaton would be a little flatter and not as sharp of a roll off after the port tune.

If you wanted reach the 10 Hz ref pressure zone, then you would need something like 2 JTR S2'.
 
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