Can't Get Accurate Dialogue out of Center Channel

I know, a very stupid, stupid, question, but do you have the center speaker tilted upward or downward so the sound waves arrive at about your ear level?


Also, take your front left and right and center speaker. Now, the center speaker should be somewhat in back of the front left and right speakers, so that they form an equidistant arc. So if the front left and right speakers are say 8 feet away from your center listening position, then the center speaker also is 8 feet away. But then, you need to move the center speaker physically back 2-4 feet, with each foot giving you about 1 ms (millisecond) of delay. Of course, if you don't have the room to move the center back physically, if your surround processor has adjustable center channel digital delay, you can try different delay settings and see how it sounds. (In my theater, the center speaker is on a stand under my screen, with the back of the center speaker about 2 feet out from the wall - the center speaker is 2' further away from me than the front left and right speakers, and I use my Casablanca's digital center delay set at 2. Just the other night, we tried the center delay at other settings, and 2 was the correct one. E.G., at 0 there was a severe lip sync problem and it didn't sound right at all.)


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Steve Bruzonsky

Gages-


I find this to be very interesting since I'm having the same trouble. My gear is Meridian with analog speakers and a Pioneer Elite DV-09. The EXACT same thing is occuring with me. So far I have confirmed: the processor is set up correctly, the wiring is just fine and the center sounds the same if switched with one of the left/right channel speakers. Also, I have contacted both Meridian and Pioneer directly on this issue. They have never heard this problem before. The only other possability that I haven't tried yet is to swap out the DVD player and try a different model than Pioneer to see if anything changes. According to them, it seems to be working just fine though.


Here is what I find most interesting: we are using different processors and speakers yet have the same brand of DVD player (different model but very close). My center channel does EXACTLY what yours does and needs to be boosted on low dialog passages and some movies. If I change sources though over to something besides DVD it sounds much louder and more clear (such as DSS). Do you get better sound on Cable/SAT sources too? If we work together on this I'm sure we can find the solution for us both. It has to be either the amps or the player itself at this point since I know for certain the processor is correctly setup, cables are OK and it doesn't matter which speaker is in the center. Right now, I'm leaning more twords the player itself. The company I got mine from has sold over 200 units and never had this to happen. They did say it's not out of the possability though.


We could both have defective players. Did you try a different brand of DVD player with yours? If not let's both try this and see what happens. Also, I should note I'm using the digital output on the DVD and it's a silver digital audio cable. My speakers are calibrated to exactly 75db on fronts and rear surround. Changing cables didn't help me though. Send me a reply, I'm sure the solution will solve the problem for us both when we find it.


Jeff

Deniz,


Interesting idea. However, it seems my problem is more pronounced with DVD versus DSS.


In my setup I would assume you mean reversing the speaker cables to the center (plus / minus).


Interestingly enough I changed the digital audio output from optical to coax. Things seem better, but I can't tell if it is real or my brain hoping it is real.


SG


[This message has been edited by gages (edited July 03, 2000).]

With DSS I assume your are talking about matrixed sound?


Gages, you assume correctly by inverting the speaker cable polarity. Another trick is to increase the delay of the center by .5ms-3ms so that it becomes further away than the mains to help reinforce the center.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<<& lt; <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<<& lt;

Interestingly enough I changed the digital audio output from optical to coax. Things seem better

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<<& lt; <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< <<<<<<<<<<<<<<& lt;

That may be so since coax has more bandwidth, but you also be correct in wishing things have gotten better just because you tried something different.


I use a Meridian 561 for my upstairs system with the center speaker on top of a RPTV. With this config., I must have the centers polarity set to + but I do add a bit of delay both electronically and physically to get the proper integration for the front stage.


***I also reduce the centers output by about 1.5db in both systems again to get proper blending in the front stage.


Gages, how close is the center speaker to the floor?


Andy, how did you determine that you have the correct polarity for your center?

Deniz Mutlu:


I'll give that a shot, but I believe at this point almost everything has been tried already. The only exception remaining is trying different amps, speakers and DVD player brand. The sound coming from my DSS is indeed analog with RCA connects, not digital. Sound on VCR, DSS, CD are louder than on DVD. The pioneer unit actually addresses this one saying it's normal for the CD to be louder on playback than DVD due to the mastering process differance between the formats. My sound seems only very slightly muddled in DVD when dialog is low in the movie. If DVD dialog is loud, the only problem is the loudness of the center. No other problems except with DVD.


My speakers are positioned under the screen on the floor for the entire front stage including the center. Distance is about 16 foot from speakers to listening position. Also, I'm using my Citation brand speakers and amps with the Meridian. According to Meridian tech, it shouldn't be a problem and we have been over the software settings.


I wonder if there is something here we are missing in that regard though or if it's the player, amps or speakers (maybe the combo)? Let me know if you have any other thoughts, I'm sure there's a solution here somewhere. I'll report back if the polarity helps any, but I doubt it.


Thanks,

http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


Jeff

Deniz, can you explain "coax has more bandwidth"


If I stand in front of my TV (about 2 ft. from the center channel) I still have the muffled effect.


I therefore think the problem Jeff and I are having is not related to timing, seating distance, or interface to the other speakers.


Jeff, do you have the same problem if you sit real close? Also, how about if you turn off your front speakers?


I agree with Paul that equalization plays an important part in the integration of audio into HT. However, the processors we are using are limited in their ability to control certain aspects of ther audio with a high degree of granularity.


What instruments could I use to detrmine if the center channel dialogue is correctly matched? I have already calibrated at 75Db using the Lexicon's built in internal noise test.



SG

how loud are you listening to movies. I found I had this problem when I first got into ht. My old DPL receiver using vhs tapes sounded "clearer" with regard to dialogue than my (at the time) DD seperates. turns out, as I live in an apartment I didnt want the movies to be too loud. as we all know DD and DTS (and even DPL) are very dynamic. You might be used to the relative lower dynamic range of programming on DSS and the wider dynamic range of DVDs might be causing you to have the volume just loud enough to get the louder sounds- but dialogue is usually lower- and thats your problem- make it louder, the dialogue is there, but the sounds are too loud. to fix this, the +6 on the dialogue is helpful, but you can do more. I believe the lexicon has a compression mode- give it a try. It will reduce dynamic range, but by doing this you might get easier to listen to dialogue. When I watch movies I usually have to keep the volume control somewhat near, I boost it some for quiet passages and knock it down a little for really loud parts. Thats apartment life for you! Im using a meridian processor, and one of its compression modes is a very gentle one that raises the level of quiet sounds- I find this gives a little assistance to my manual volume control method.


- Jerry


[This message has been edited by aerialman (edited July 04, 2000).]

Jerry,


Good point re the volume control.


Why should one have to adjust volume when watching a DVD at home? I would think that the audio on the DVD is encoded in such a way that the volume should be kept at the same level throughout. This will result in some sections being louder and some lower (as the director intended).


Why should we have to touch the volume at all? We don't do it in the movie theatre!



Steve

Quote:
Dennis,


Funny you should suggest that. I recently installed a front projector and without giving it much thought decided to place the center (DefTech Procenter 100) near the floor, under the screen. Didn't sound good -- muddy dialog, very difficult to understand -- pretty much what this thread is all about. I was reluctant to move it above the screen since I have 16" of black lead-in which placed the center channel very high in relation to the screen. But, I thought I would give it a try. Huge difference! I can now understand the whispering priest in the opening scene of the 5th Element. I have to admit that I expected voices would sound like they were coming from Heaven, making it suitable only for God speaking to Charlton Heston, but a combination of a vaulted ceiling and a down angle on the speaker seem to have solved that problem.


Jeff

Deniz:


The Citation 7.2 speakers are all about 16 foot away, give or take a few inches. I rounded off to the nearest setting for distance setting on the Meridian so it's correct. All of them are vertical standing with wooden wedge shaped small blocks under the front left and right corners so they angle slightly up (not much) for better diminsion. It works really good for that portion of it. I haven't tried center being horizontal though and angled upward. I'll give that one a shot and see. I did try to set different phases both + and - for each one and it didn't help any.


The biggest area of trouble is low passages in DVD movies, not DSS analog or VHS. It needs a DB boost on DVD so the dialog isn't quite as muddy sounding. It is by no means distorted or heavy in the way you can make out the voices, just not quite clear enough on the low dialog scenes. When the special effects come into play, it really sounds louder and needs to be turned down some if the volume was turned up or the center channel DB boosted.


I'm leaning more twords what Dennis said in regards to placement of the center. I can't put the speakers behind my drop down screen since it's not perf sound material. Also, I have a problem with the ceiling too. If you mount above the screen it will interfer some with the viewing because the bottom will be close to the white screen surface and you will certainly notice the speaker when viewing. I think it would be a distration seeing the speaker hanging up there myself. So, what's the options left open? There has to be a solution.


Dennis:


If you read this, please comment on the above. My screen is solid and not sound perf. material to let the sound come though. The top of the case screen is touching the ceiling and mounting above it doesn't seem too good like I said above. What would you do and also what is the best way to set up speakers if you have a non sound perf screen surface? Please give some details, it would help a lot.


Thanks,

http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


Jeff