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Just a rant...


I'm fed up with people saying that the best HD media out there is "Ratatouille" and other Disney/Pixar cartoons. I can see the hair on the rat's chin just fine on my standard definiton set also. The colors look just as bright and vibrant on my 19" tube set in the kitchen. It's a cartoon.


I think a true test of HD quality is live action film, such movies as "There Will Be Blood". Media that can capture every detail of Daniel Day Lewis' face or the desolate landscape of the oil fields really shows off great HD technology.


Note: I have a Panasonic plasma pz85u, so I'm not ripping HD technology at all. I just think cartoons are not the best way to show the awesome quality of HD.


That's all I got.
 

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Try watching on a very large screen projector.


The smaller the set versus viewing distance the less differences you notice versus standard definition. There will be blood is excellent though.
 

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The bottom line is that all disc media goes through a compression process for the codec used. Animation, or Live action, doesnt make a difference, poor compression means a poor transfer. Why go see an animation in a theatre it's just a cartoon, Not ... it's about picture quality.
 

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While I think it looks great I do now way see the gap from SD to HD as I do in live action. No matter the screen size either. More advantages to have the SD so I can watch in different rooms/long car rides IMO.


My kids can't tell the difference between the two and we have watched the blu ray like 5 times while the SD DVD has been watched 50 times on multiple players.
 

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What might be capturing attention with animation is greater sharpness, which differs from greater effective resolution (resolvable detail). Images can appear sharper when the coarser lower resolutions have greater contrast. If you plot contrast versus frequencies, (a modulation transfer function or MTF curve), sharper images show more area under a MTF plot. Babbled on a bit about this here yesterday, providing some MTF-curve links. Agree with the OP: wide outdoor vistas with distant detail, under adequate lighting, may provide the best combination of both extended effective resolution and sharpness. -- John
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandman209 /forum/post/14292981


I just think cartoons are not the best way to show the awesome quality of HD.


That's all I got.

But DNR'ed edge enhanced catalog titles, now that's something to be proud of.


Sounds like your beef is with the content, not the presentation. Just remember, films like Cars were rendered at HIGHER than HD resolutions. They threw out picture information to appear on HD disc. To claim that HD discs don't benefit over DVD for animated titles is silly.


Plus, I watch movies like Ratatouille, Ghost in the Shell and Persepolis because I like them and want to see them in their best possible presentation. That's the whole point of HD discs. The fact that they don't "suffer" (and you know what I mean when I say this, so let's not go down that road ^_^) from film grain, poor transfers, etc. makes them more likely candidates to be pulled off the shelf for wow factor reasons. I'm guessing you probably know this, so I'm left wondering the reason of this post. They get recommended too often as demo discs? Man, you would've hated this forum when Fifth Element came out on DVD. ^_^
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mason /forum/post/14294476


Agree with the OP: wide outdoor vistas with distant detail, under adequate lighting, may provide the best combination of both extended effective resolution and sharpness. -- John

But how many of those actually exist in film-on blu-ray, since, as you mentioned in your link, there's filtering happening at the lens?


And why couldn't it be modeled in a computer? I was under the impression the dynamic range of film had been possible in CG for a while now. (HDRI rendering) Just thinking out loud...
 

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I don't understand how, in the picture quality thread, you can really compare CGI/cartoon films with live-action films. I think perhaps they could be put into separate sections.


I mean, in the picture quality spec thread it says things like "Tier 0 "maintains a realistic feel throughout", "Tier 1 "Video artifacts are next to nothing with a good sense of realistic feel"", "The image is sharp and nicely detailed"


Yet the top rated title in the tier thread is "Ratatoille", and other cartoons get high scores too (higher than most live action films). Look at the face of the man on the cover of the Ratatoille disc http://hddb.net/reviews/1975 - does it really have more detail and look more real than every live action Blu-ray ever released?


Also, look at the faces of the characters in "The Simpsons" http://hddb.net/reviews/simpsons-movie-the-blu-ray - do they really have more detail and look more real than most of the live action Blu-ray titles?


CGI/cartoon titles are good, but I'm not sure they should be in the same tier as live action films, or that the characters in a Simpsons style cartoon look more real/detailed than live action films. Even the lowest quality live action Blu-ray should have more realistic looking people (and probably detail in the people) than The Simpsons.
 

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This is a silly thread that's been repeated a few times. Cgi and even traditional animation material show off HD far better overall than live action/film.
 

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Originally Posted by John Mason

Agree with the OP: wide outdoor vistas with distant detail, under adequate lighting, may provide the best combination of both extended effective resolution and sharpness. -- John

Quote:
Originally Posted by chirpie /forum/post/14305721


But how many of those actually exist in film-on blu-ray, since, as you mentioned in your link, there's filtering happening at the lens?

Sure enough. But can only hope for improvements one of these days
.

Quote:
And why couldn't it be modeled in a computer? I was under the impression the dynamic range of film had been possible in CG for a while now. (HDRI rendering) Just thinking out loud...

Yes, computer images needn't be sampled since they're generated pixel by pixel. Image sampling, at ~74 Mhz for HD, requires filtering to prevent aliasing and results in reduced effective resolution. So computer animation can exceed sampled effective resolution. But can't say I've seen any really detailed comparisons of the best (resolution-wise) animations in theaters with the best non-animation productions. It's hard to imagine what details have been fully exploited with animation's potential greater effective resolution, such as finer hairs on an animated ape. Dynamic range in animations can be what ever the artist selects, it would seem, and a wide contrast range for coarser lower resolutions could provide the impression of greater sharpness; (the thrust of my earlier post). Seems important to distinguish between cartoon animations (the OP) and computer graphics for FX.


Suspect it would take a spectrum analysis for accurate comparisons, such as that undertaken by sspears, who found that computer animated productions provided maximum effective horizontal resolution up to the equivalent of 1300 lines (per picture width), versus 800 to perhaps 1100 (my conclusion) for other telecined sampled films (on HD-D5 1080/24p master tapes). Recall outlining more about sspears' study and Joe Kane's comments on such results here earlier. Those are earlier generalized readings, and newer hardware/productions may well exceed them. Can't say I've noticed spectacular advances in HD fidelity during the past 8 years, though. -- John
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kram Sacul /forum/post/14308255


This is a silly thread that's been repeated a few times. Cgi and even traditional animation material show off HD far better overall than live action/film.

But with The Simpsons, http://hddb.net/reviews/simpsons-movie-the-blu-ray

no matter how close Homer Simpson gets to the screen, nor how many pixels are on the screen, his face is still going to be made up of 2 round circles for eyes, a limited number of lines to make up the rest of his face and his face filled in with a flat yellow colour
There won't really be any more detail in his face the closer he gets to the screen. Yet with other, live action films (and often 3d cgi), the closer something gets to the camera/how high res the content is, the more detail you'll get.


With the Simpson's, the only really detailed shots you'll get are probably ones like crowd scenes, but each person will be quite simple drawings with flat colours.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs /forum/post/14311450


But with The Simpsons, http://hddb.net/reviews/simpsons-movie-the-blu-ray

no matter how close Homer Simpson gets to the screen, nor how many pixels are on the screen, his face is still going to be made up of 2 round circles for eyes, a limited number of lines to make up the rest of his face and his face filled in with a flat yellow colour
There won't really be any more detail in his face the closer he gets to the screen. Yet with other, live action films (and often 3d cgi), the closer something gets to the camera/how high res the content is, the more detail you'll get.


With the Simpson's, the only really detailed shots you'll get are probably ones like crowd scenes, but each person will be quite simple drawings with flat colours.

As someone who has to scan in line art at HIGHER resolutions than photographs, I've said it before and I'll say it again, nothing shows deficiencies in resolution like a fine black line. Continuous tones (photographs, or in this case, live action film) hide lower resolutions better in many cases! I'll post an example of what I'm talking about in a few minutes. Gotta go mock one up.
 

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I agree the 1080p version looks better and more "precise" than the 480p version (also there's aliasing in the 480p version - whereas it might really be soft/blurred instead of aliased on the right screen). I also haven't seen the Simpson's Blu-ray. But I don't think I see much more detail in the 1080p version than in the 480p version (except for a few lines that have been blurred into one in the 480p version). The flat colours are still the same flat colours in both versions, you still wouldn't really see more details in his face with 1080p or the closer he gets to the screen (apart from the lines that were blurred together in 480p) but I agree that it's more precise looking and better looking in the 1080p version.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs /forum/post/14312274


I agree the 1080p version looks better and more "precise" than the 480p version. I also haven't seen the Simpson's Blu-ray. But I also don't think I see much more detail in the 1080p version than in the 480p version (except for a few lines that have been blurred into one in the 480p version). The flat colours are still the same flat colours in both versions, you still wouldn't really see more details in his face the with 1080p or the closer he gets to the screen (apart from the lines that were blurred together in 480p) but I agree that it's more precise looking and better looking in the 1080p version.

I think it's a simple case of priority of what makes great picture quality. Outside of that, I think we're on the same page here. :)
 

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If you have a PS3 go d/l the XAM'd 1080p trailer off the PSN store (you can also find the trailer elsewhere on the net), a beautiful example of 1080p anime (and if you like the trailer you can go and d/l the first episode in HD off the store for $4, although it's a bit pricey for my blood considering it's a 24-part series).


Watch the free trailer and be prepared to see just what is in store for us when more studios start using the full 1080p format with a mix of traditional hand-drawn animation and computers. Simply stunning.
 
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