[thegratingone]

Anyone have any experience (or even any hearsay) with the highly customized (ridiculously expensive!!) CAT speaker systems? Thanks.

 

[blee95]

"(ridiculously expensive!!)"


This comment seems odd in the ultra Hi-End Gear Forum.


I have had nothing but great interactions with both the product and people that make up CAT MBX.

 

[thegratingone]

Quote:

Originally posted by blee95 "(ridiculously expensive!!)" This comment seems odd in the ultra Hi-End Gear Forum. I have had nothing but great interactions with both the product and people that make up CAT MBX.

It was not a socialist lament, only an observation that this board is 20K and up, and CAT theaters (just speakers) can supposedly go into multiple 100s of thousands. I am trying to decide if I think it's worth it (from my own observations and from hearing from others who might know more than me).

 

[tpigeon2003]

I think it is fair to say that describing a home theater starting at 200k+ and going over 3mil as "ridiculously expensive!!" does not necessairly make you a communist .


Grating, are you actually interested in replacing your speakers?

 

[thegratingone]

Quote:

Originally posted by tpigeon2003 I think it is fair to say that describing a home theater starting at 200k+ and going over 3mil as "ridiculously expensive!!" does not necessairly make you a communist . Grating, are you actually interested in replacing your speakers?

Replacing, no. But my new house offers the option of a listening room (for the Wilsons) and a separate theater (for something, maybe CAT). Only considering it now. I can afford a decent amount but this is pushing it... I get very interested if people rave about the CAT set-up (and yes, I will then listen for myself!).


Thanks.

 

[tpigeon2003]

Without ever hearing a cat setup, I would not spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on speakers for an exclusive HT room (no music) because the source material is not very good (the dts and dd sound tracks in dvd's use lossy compression and are therefore not high fidelity sources, though they are good enough to be entertaining when you are distracted by a big screen). Furthermore, there is no guarantee the audio will get better when HD-DVD comes out. For example, I heard Sony said that they were only supporting dd and dts for Blu-Ray in multichannel sound. Spending hundreds of thousands or more on a speaker system exclusively for dvd use is sort of like buying a tactical nuclear weapon to kill a fly. If you really want to spend money, I would look towards buying good speakers, powerful subwoofers, and an Odyssey Motion simulator. My guess is that you will have more fun with this setup and it will save you lots of money.

 

[thegratingone]

Quote:

Originally posted by tpigeon2003 Without ever hearing a cat setup, I would not spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on speakers for an exclusive HT room (no music) because the source material is not very good (the dts and dd sound tracks in dvd's use lossy compression and are therefore not high fidelity sources, though they are good enough to be entertaining when you are distracted by a big screen). Furthermore, there is no guarantee the audio will get better when HD-DVD comes out. For example, I heard Sony said that they were only supporting dd and dts for Blu-Ray in multichannel sound. Spending hundreds of thousands or more on a speaker system exclusively for dvd use is sort of like buying a tactical nuclear weapon to kill a fly. If you really want to spend money, I would look towards buying good speakers, powerful subwoofers, and an Odyssey Motion simulator. My guess is that you will have more fun with this setup and it will save you lots of money.

Thanks.


What speakers do you like for HT?

 

[tpigeon2003]

Grating,

I happen to like Vandersteen speakers, that does not mean you will, and many people think Vandersteens suck for HT because they are "laid back" and are db challenged (they do not sound laid back to me and they play more than loud enough for me as well as everyone else I had over. I will list my system below in case you care ). If you like wilson speakers the best, I would suggest you stick with what you like but get something like the sophias for your main speakers as opposed to watt/puppies. As far as subs go, I would compare other subs with similar driver sizes to the watch dog, with movie material only, and make a decision on what you like. The Watchdog is awfully expensive and you don't need the music mode vs movie mode technology in an exclusive HT environment.


My System

Vandersteen 5

Vandersteen VCC-5

4 Vandersteen VSM-1 Sig surrounds

2 2WQ Subs for the vandersteen surrounds

2 V2W subs for a little extra bass in action movies



I have a total of 6 subwoofers in my system (the vandy 5's come with built in subs), four of which allow the vandersteens to play louder and lower. The entire system costs around 20K and I get flat frequency response from 20-20,000 hz in all 7 speaker positions. Keep in mind that I also play music in this room.


edit-I have no experience with Odyssey Motion simulators, but Mr. Poindexter does. You should ask him about them. They sound like fun .

 

[blee95]

Price aside. I have had the privilege of listening to four separate CAT systems. Three of which are made up of CAT MBX speakers and associated components. I have been a big fan of Wilsons and have listened to and respect Vandersteens, however, for my money there is little that holds a candle to a Avonite CAT MBX system.

 

[Mark Seaton]

While I am hardly the most objective given my position, I have heard a couple of the demo systems from CAT, and know many who have had experience with them. IMNSHO, the company has a great concept in delivering a customized system, yet fall a bit short in the performance realm. Unfortuantely expensive components and materials alone do not guarantee great system performance. While EQ can be used to great benefit in fine tuning a system, you can't just throw equalizers at a speaker to make them sound good. While those who sell this high profit line tend to be almost brainwashed with the claims and marketing of the company, I have yet to encounter anyone I respect in design or experience who has been impressed with a CAT system, especially once you consider the price.


If you are willing to invest seriously in a high performance system, first start with a great room. Yes, you read that from a speaker manufacturer. The most impressive in my oppinion are the designs Keith Yates assembles. Yes, he has used a few of our subwoofers, but he also designs many awesome systems without our products. If you want an interesting perspective on the CAT MBX thing, and have some phone time available, ask Keith his oppinion of it...


While I am not saying that it is a terrible system, and you could easily do much worse, but if you are spending over $100k on a room, you have potential to do much better.

 

[blee95]

Mark,


Your "opinion" of CAT MBX is heard. However, the assertion that they "just throw equalizers at a speaker to make them sound good" is a very misleading statement. Much much more is involved then that in a true CAT MBX system.


There are many "respectable" people and companies that are involved with CAT MBX, I wonder why you would make a statement such as this:

While those who sell this high profit line tend to be almost brainwashed with the claims and marketing of the company, I have yet to encounter anyone I respect in design or experience who has been impressed with a CAT system, especially once you consider the price.


It really does seem that you have a not so well hidden agenda when you accuse those who sell and install the systems as "brainwashed".


By the way, CAT MBX spends much of its time and resources working with acousticians, power and grounding, architects, and various other specialists and engineers on each truly MBX system.

 

[tzucc]

I haven't met anyone who owned CAT speakers, though seen it in a magazine once. The comment about you can use less accurate speakers because DVD audio compression is lossy makes sense. However you would be amazed at how speakers with lots of accuracy and slam make gun shot sizzle through your room. If you close your eyes, I can convince you that a Huey helo is in my media room, thanks to my particular speaker brand.


WHich I am not allowed to mention this close to midnight... I only get to praise them 25 times in any one 24 hour period.

 

[tpigeon2003]

You will get plenty of slam from good subs and my guess is you will get even more than you can handle from the Odyssey Motion Simulator (again, ask Poindexter, I don't own one). As for movie sound, the truth of the matter is that sound effects are made up by the sound engineers and no one really knows what the sound effect is supposed to sound like, so it is literally impossible to tell how accurately one's speakers reproduces movie material except for the music.


edit: My position is that you should not spend more on your movie theater speakers than your music speakers. Grating has a high budget, but a budget none the less, and he was thinking about spending lots more on his movie theater speakers than his music speakers when music is a much higher quality source -- especially when you get into sacd and dvd-a. I am suggesting that this is a misallocation of resources.


Finally, a word of caution (I am not saying this just because I have first-order xovers and I am jealous of you highly efficient wilson owners ). Don't play your movies too loud. Look up the OSHA guidelines for acceptable volumes and buy yourself a radio shack soundmeter and use it when playing music and movies to get an idea of your average db levels.

http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/noisehearin...ml#Recognition

 

[Mark Seaton]

Quote:

Originally posted by blee95 It really does seem that you have a not so well hidden agenda when you accuse those who sell and install the systems as "brainwashed".

If it was intended to be a hidden agenda, it would have been written much differently. My not-so-humble-oppinion is there to read, where of course it is only my oppinion, with experiences of myself and others behind it. CAT has a great concept. In my oppinion they fall far short on execution of said concept.


Quote:

Originally posted by tpigeon2003 Finally, a word of caution (I am not saying this just because I have first-order xovers and I am jealous of you highly efficient wilson owners ). Don't play your movies too loud. Look up the OSHA guidelines for acceptable volumes and buy yourself a radio shack soundmeter and use it when playing music and movies to get an idea of your average db levels.

I asked a similar question of Tom Holman at an AES conference last year. He commented that he has worn the OSHA exposure meters sitting through THX theaters which were calibrated to reference level and never even came close to maximum exposure levels.


In general average dialog and background levels of a soundtrack are 65-85dB with high dynamic peaks. Exposure is both time and frequency dependent. What really excites a listeners are clean ~30dB+ peaks, not sustained levels of 120dB. By comparison, many complaints of poor quality live music come when headroom is limited to less than 15-25dB. Again, dynamics are much more exciting than purely loud levels, and much less taxing on our hearing.

 

[tzucc]

pigeon, I did check into safe hearing levels and it is easy to exceed the safe level hearing. Esp for me since I have some minor damage already from firearm use.


I agree with Mark... much more exciting than sustained loudness is dynamic peaks. The stuff I have read says that sustained volume is what damages the ears, not dynamic pops up to 120dB range.

 

[aerialman]

the concept that dd/dts are lossy and therefore dont require good speakers is not supported by my experience. My experience is very good speakers improve the experience- so long as its a good acoustic space to begin with.


never heard a CAT system- but Ive been impressed with their marketing. good luck to them

 

[tpigeon2003]

Gosh, got a lot to respond to .


Hearing. I agree on the sustained listening parts as opposed to the dynamic differences. Just make sure you are not setting your dialog to 90 db . People tend to turn the volume up the longer they have their systems -- especially once they get hearing damage -- they turn it louder making the problem worse and entering a really bad hearing loss cycle. I really don't care about what speakers you like. I do care about you being able to enjoy your hobby .


About DTS/DD compression. I did not say better speakers don't make a difference. I do believe the difference is capped at a lower level than with music. If you are going to bother having a separate listening room and a HT room, you are probably doing both ht and music rather frequently, which means the money is better spent on music. BTW: many movie mixes are dynamically compressed in the frequency range in addition to the compression done by DTS and DD.


I also think people like the "boom" capability of subwoofers more in movies for the extra effect, so your money is better spent on powerful subwoofers and things like the Odyssey Motion Simulator than for the speakers themselves. Most people would get more fun/dollar out of these things in a HT only room IMO.

 

[blee95]

tpigeon2003,


I agree with you that people tend to like the woofer "boom" effect in movies and that is another reason why the CAT MBX system I have heard are very fun to experience. They tend to use quite a few subs in the systems.


Mark Seaton,


If you have an opinion on CAT falling short I would like to know what you base this opinion on and specifically how they have fallen so short. Not just accusations of EQ use to "fix" speakers, and the terribly "high profits", and the "all marketing no substance" arguments. Lets see some real solid evidence that CAT MBX is truly a product not worth the money spent.

 

[bkeman]

I have had the luxury of experiencing a CAT MBX system. It was awesome, and there were 13 subwoofers used. I can honestly say it was like nothing I had heard before.

 

[S&V Design]

Bkeman seeing as how you are from Houston and are a lover of Linn, I take it you have been to audio concepts and experienced their CAT theater which also has a D-Box and 27 subs. We are in the process of building a few more CAT MBX theaters right now. CAT is a great speaker if you are looking for an engineered solution. Alot of work goes into every CAT MBX theater we build and is much more then just great products, speakers and EQ's. Much of the cost comes from design and implementation so that we have the ideal room and acoustics for the system to perform at its best. Take a look at Area 51 www.audio-concepts.com