AVS Forum banner
1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm about to buy my first HDTV. I have my eye on the Sony KDL-46EX500, good price ($989), good brand (IMO), picture looks great in the store (I've seen it on display at JR and datavision).

My concern however is that I'm making a mistake buying a CCFL backlit TV. I've read that over time these backlights become dimmer and give off a greenish tint. I was told that LED's do not fade or change color over time.


What are your comments on this? Considering the amount of money and the fact that I plan to keep this tv for ten or 20 years (if it lasts that long), I'd rather spend more now to have a good picture for a longer time. If this means to go LED, please give me some recommendations on models. I did see the new LG 47LE5400 yesterday, picture looked great (backlit LEd, no local dimming).


Thank you,

Jason
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,040 Posts
I think the jury is still out on whether or not the LED backlighting will fade over time, and at what rate.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,500 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by dahkter /forum/post/18293179


I'm about to buy my first HDTV. I have my eye on the Sony KDL-46EX500, good price ($989), good brand (IMO), picture looks great in the store (I've seen it on display at JR and datavision).

My concern however is that I'm making a mistake buying a CCFL backlit TV. I've read that over time these backlights become dimmer and give off a greenish tint. I was told that LED's do not fade or change color over time.


What are your comments on this? Considering the amount of money and the fact that I plan to keep this tv for ten or 20 years (if it lasts that long), I'd rather spend more now to have a good picture for a longer time. If this means to go LED, please give me some recommendations on models. I did see the new LG 47LE5400 yesterday, picture looked great (backlit LEd, no local dimming).


Thank you,

Jason

Most of the LCD TVs sold now are CCFL, and that isn't going to change for at least 2-4 years, if not longer.


CCFL have a half-life of tens of thousands of hours, lets say 40,000 hours. That means you should be fine for ~10 years if used 10 hours every day. LEDs should have a similar life span.


Neither LCD nor Plasma TVs have been around long enough to say that the other electronics in an LCD TV will last more than 10 years.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,479 Posts
I think CCFL TVs should be fine as long as you research the brands and preview the set you will buy thoroughly. LCD panel/CCFL lighting combinations are many. Sets like Mitsubishi, LG, Toshiba, and even Vizio have wide color gamut CCFL's and produce stunning video. By the way, have you checked out the Vizio SVT47xxx sets? Same price range as your Sony but more convenient connections (IMO) and excellent picture quality. Handled by certain club stores and other big box places.


As far as durability, even though LEDs are purportedly long life, it would depend how high you run the backlight level on your particular TV. LEDs are not so long lasting in many applications (automotive signal lights and tail lights, traffic signals) when they are over driven to produce very bright white light, so without knowing what the engineers have done in a particular TV who knows if LEDs are any longer lasting.


CCFLs are just that. . . no hot filament is used to produce light and age or degrade. And, again, the lower you can keep backlighting down in level the longer it will last and also produce a pure enough light to mitigate any color shifts. The florescent material should not really change in color output a whole lot if voltage to the lamps is reduced to minimum levels rather than maximum it can handle.


Lastly, a field backlit LCD uses many more LEDs to provide backlight than sets using CCLFs. If one LED out of 30, 40, 50 goes out I would think it would surely be visible. Of course, so would a CCLF tube, but fewer are needed; usually 8 to 14 or so depending on panel size. So numbers alone make a statement here I think.


I have 3 LCD sets with CCFL (from 3 to 4 years old) and my daughter has an Olivia with CCFL that she runs it every day for nearly 10 - 12 hours each day going on 4 years. I set it up for her and so far I haven't noticed any yellowing or dimming.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,500 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase700B /forum/post/18294271


I think CCFL TVs should be fine as long as you research the brands and preview the set you will buy thoroughly. LCD panel/CCFL lighting combinations are many. Sets like Mitsubishi, LG, Toshiba, and even Vizio have wide color gamut CCFL's and produce stunning video.


As far as durability, even though LEDs are purportedly long life, it would depend how high you run the backlight level on your particular TV. LEDs are not so long lasting in many applications (automotive signal lights and tail lights, traffic signals) when they are over driven to produce very bright white light, so without knowing what the engineers have done in a particular TV who knows if LEDs are any longer lasting.


CCFLs are just that. . . no hot filament is used to produce light and age or degrade. And, again, the lower you can keep backlighting down in level the longer it will last and also produce a pure enough light to mitigate any color shifts. The florescent material should not really change in color output a whole lot if voltage to the lamps is reduced to minimum levels rather than maximum it can handle.


Lastly, a field backlit LCD uses many more LEDs to provide backlight than sets using CCLFs. If one LED out of 30, 40, 50 goes out I would think it would surely be visible. Of course, so would a CCLF tube, but fewer are needed; usually 8 to 14 or so depending on panel size. So numbers alone make a statement here I think.


I have 3 LCD sets with CCFL (from 3 to 4 years old) and my daughter has an Olivia with CCFL that she runs it every day for nearly 10 - 12 hours each day going on 4 years. I set it up for her and so far I haven't noticed any yellowing or dimming.

1) Mitsubishi is the Least Reliable LCD with sufficient sales to track. 11% of Misubishi LCDs purchased between 2006 and mid-2009 needed repairs. This compares with Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, Sharp, Vizio, Toshiba, LG, which are all statistically the same at ~3% needing repair.


2) The Olivia used 12 hours a day for 4 years would still only have 17,520 hours on it. This is well within the half-brightness point of LCD TVs which typically are rated for 40,000 hours or more.


3) The best deals are on CCFL sets, especially discontinued models. CCFL is alive and well



Too bad Bob Carver can't seem to make much headway over the last 10 years.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,040 Posts
LED backlit sets do have the advantage of using less power and putting out less heat. At least, the edge lit ones do, I'm not sure about the backlit ones.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,500 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkcohen /forum/post/18294376


LED backlit sets do have the advantage of using less power and putting out less heat. At least, the edge lit ones do, I'm not sure about the backlit ones.


Do any of the LED back-lit LCD TVs have cooling fans (like some plasma models I have seen)?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,040 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy /forum/post/18294464


Do any of the LED back-lit LCD TVs have cooling fans (like some plasma models I have seen)?

Not sure, but my concern about the heat output is how much heat they output into the room, rather than a worry about the internal components. My 52B750 really heats up my small living room and it becomes a problem in my apartment on warm days. I have to limit how much I open up my apartment because my cat has asthma. There are alot of LEDs in the backlit sets, perhaps owners of them can chime in as to how the heat output compares to a traditional CCFL set.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,500 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkcohen /forum/post/18294505


Not sure, but my concern about the heat output is how much heat they output into the room, rather than a worry about the internal components. My 52B750 really heats up my small living room and it becomes a problem in my apartment on warm days. I have to limit how much I open up my apartment because my cat has asthma. There are alot of LEDs in the backlit sets, perhaps owners of them can chime in as to how the heat output compares to a traditional CCFL set.

Sorry to hear that your 52B750 puts out so much heat. Doesn't sound like it has any fans in it. I'm just reflecting on the 65 inch Panasonic plasma I saw that had 4 cooling fans across the top of the back.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,479 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy /forum/post/18294372


1) Mitsubishi is the Least Reliable LCD with sufficient sales to track. 11% of Misubishi LCDs purchased between 2006 and mid-2009 needed repairs. This compares with Sony, Samsung, Panasonic, Sharp, Vizio, Toshiba, LG, which are all statistically the same at ~3% needing repair.



Too bad Bob Carver can't seem to make much headway over the last 10 years.

I do not think the Mitusbishi sets have had failures related to CCFL back lighiting issues which is what the OP was asking about. Mitsubishi sets have had power supply issues and DM boards failures which affect the whole operation.


Fans? Actually, the Mitsubishi LT-46131/231 has a mounting position internal to the set over the DM board. How do I know> I had my DM board replaced and now also have a fan where it was designed to be.
The set has been running flawlessly for the last 2 years.


Bob Carver... what can I say... The MAN!




My 700B and 2000 preamp are still running after over 30 years. I do have a 400B, though, that blew a couple fuses and now needs repair. . . someday.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,479 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkcohen /forum/post/18294376


LED backlit sets do have the advantage of using less power and putting out less heat. At least, the edge lit ones do, I'm not sure about the backlit ones.

I put a Kill-o-watt meter on my mom's Vizio 37" with CCFL. With the backlight down to where it should be for calibration, the set only takes 64 watts when it is on and less than .4 watt in standby.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,307 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by dahkter /forum/post/18293179


I'm about to buy my first HDTV. I have my eye on the Sony KDL-46EX500, good price ($989), good brand (IMO), picture looks great in the store (I've seen it on display at JR and datavision).

My concern however is that I'm making a mistake buying a CCFL backlit TV. I've read that over time these backlights become dimmer and give off a greenish tint. I was told that LED's do not fade or change color over time.


What are your comments on this? Considering the amount of money and the fact that I plan to keep this tv for ten or 20 years (if it lasts that long), I'd rather spend more now to have a good picture for a longer time. If this means to go LED, please give me some recommendations on models. I did see the new LG 47LE5400 yesterday, picture looked great (backlit LEd, no local dimming).


Thank you,

Jason

Where I work the sets run 12 hours a day 363 days during their service as display models and are in maxed-out torch mode. Although that adds up to only 4300 hours it is under the most adverse conditions possible.


In the over 3 years I've worked there, with only about 4 exceptions, which shall remain nameless as they are not current models, none of the LCD sets either ccfl or led has lost any brightness nor suffered any discoloration. For that matter nor have any of the plasmas. We've had 2 of the Samsung lcd sets exhibit the symptoms associated with capacitor failure in that time and even that's not too bad considering that we have about as many Samsungs on display than all other makes combined.


As previously stated by others, neither type of lcd set has been in wide use for more than about 5 years so it's really not possible to speculate on whether they will last 10 or 20 years.


I'd also agree with that poster that the likelihood is that a circuit board or other part will fail before the backlight or lcd panel.


In my admittedly anecdotal experience processing replacements under extended warranty the third tier mfg sets are most likely to fail--specifically those made by Funai, Magnavox branded sets, Element, and Pro Scan, and those failures almost always involve an unobtainable part other than the backlight or lcd panel.


I suspect that with the constant introduction of new "must-have" features with every year many people aren't expecting to keep their tvs for 10-20 years as was the case in the past.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,500 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve S /forum/post/18295147


Where I work the sets run 12 hours a day 363 days during their service as display models and are in maxed-out torch mode. Although that adds up to only 4300 hours it is under the most adverse conditions possible.


In the over 3 years I've worked there, with only about 4 exceptions, which shall remain nameless as they are not current models, none of the LCD sets either ccfl or led has lost any brightness nor suffered any discoloration. For that matter nor have any of the plasmas. We've had 2 of the Samsung lcd sets exhibit the symptoms associated with capacitor failure in that time and even that's not too bad considering that we have about as many Samsungs on display than all other makes combined.


As previously stated by others, neither type of lcd set has been in wide use for more than about 5 years so it's really not possible to speculate on whether they will last 10 or 20 years.


I'd also agree with that poster that the likelihood is that a circuit board or other part will fail before the backlight or lcd panel.


In my admittedly anecdotal experience processing replacements under extended warranty the third tier mfg sets are most likely to fail--specifically those made by Funai, Magnavox branded sets, Element, and Pro Scan, and those failures almost always involve an unobtainable part other than the backlight or lcd panel.


I suspect that with the constant introduction of new "must-have" features with every year many people aren't expecting to keep their tvs for 10-20 years as was the case in the past.


3D has clearly captured the imagination of a lot of people. Beyond that what "must-have" features do you see on the horizon?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,040 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy /forum/post/18294629


Sorry to hear that your 52B750 puts out so much heat. Doesn't sound like it has any fans in it. I'm just reflecting on the 65 inch Panasonic plasma I saw that had 4 cooling fans across the top of the back.

Fans wouldn't improve on the amount of heat the LCD radiates.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
83 Posts
I went ccfl for my new tv on purpose - Sony ex500 over the edge lit LED ex700. It was a major factor for me. CCFL has been perfected over the last few years and the bugs should very well be ironed out by now while edge lit LED is very new and still has some issues.


I'd rather buy the best of the old vs the ? of the new. Although, I'm jaded since my Sony SXRD LCOS died on me and I'm kinda gun shy of newer tech now... just sayin'. I don't want to be a guinea pig for new tech anymore. If I could afford the backlit LED I'd still be wary of it, but would get it anyway (probably).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,307 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy /forum/post/18295261


3D has clearly captured the imagination of a lot of people. Beyond that what "must-have" features do you see on the horizon?

Haven't we already heard rumblings about 480hz lcds, OLED, and 2:35 AR sets? I don't doubt that somebody will figure out how to do 3d without the glasses, then there's the horrible gap between the maximum 1080p resolution on home tvs and the 4000p or whatever used for digital theater projection
. Then there'll be tvs so thin we can literally glue them to the wall like wallpaper followed by the ultimate--Holographic tv.


I guess my point was that sometimes the latest and greatest tech is more hype than substantive improvement, or involves trade-offs that may not be of real benefit, or just isn't ready for prime time. The 3 football effect on early 120hz sets is an example. Sony's whole SXRD debacle is another. Edge lit leds with stratospheric CR ratings but that suffer from excessive flashlighting don't necessarily indicate that it's a bad idea, just that it was brought to market too soon or with inadequate qc.


The tv industry is far from being alone in this--there's more than one luxury car brand that touts the fact that their cars have 8 speed automatic transmissions--something that is not only totally unnecessary unless your car has a diesel engine with a very narrow power band (these don't) but also adds tremendously to the complexity and cost of repair of the automobile.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
FYI, I'm the OP, after reading this I decided to go CCFL.

ssowinski nailed it, I decided to go with a proven technology that has been improved each year, rather than a brand new technology (LED back or edgelit).

Thanks all for your replies in this thread.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,500 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve S /forum/post/18297697


Haven't we already heard rumblings about 480hz lcds, OLED, and 2:35 AR sets? I don't doubt that somebody will figure out how to do 3d without the glasses, then there's the horrible gap between the maximum 1080p resolution on home tvs and the 4000p or whatever used for digital theater projection
. Then there'll be tvs so thin we can literally glue them to the wall like wallpaper followed by the ultimate--Holographic tv.


I guess my point was that sometimes the latest and greatest tech is more hype than substantive improvement, or involves trade-offs that may not be of real benefit, or just isn't ready for prime time. The 3 football effect on early 120hz sets is an example. Sony's whole SXRD debacle is another. Edge lit leds with stratospheric CR ratings but that suffer from excessive flashlighting don't necessarily indicate that it's a bad idea, just that it was brought to market too soon or with inadequate qc.


The tv industry is far from being alone in this--there's more than one luxury car brand that touts the fact that their cars have 8 speed automatic transmissions--something that is not only totally unnecessary unless your car has a diesel engine with a very narrow power band (these don't) but also adds tremendously to the complexity and cost of repair of the automobile.

1) 480 Hz frame rate is slated for the $3,500 Vizio 72 inch TV scheduled for release in August. Well implemented 120 Hz, and 240 Hz frame rate TVs do a good job of reducing motion blur. This is important to some people, and, the trend is pretty clear. 60 Hz is going to be found on only the least expensive TVs very soon now. 120 Hz can work well, 240 Hz can work even better. It is too early to say how 480 Hz is going to work, but when you can get 480 Hz on a 72 inch LCD with LED back-lighting, the same demographic of people who bought 55 inch Samsung 55B8500 for anywhere between $3,100 - $4,400 are way excited about both the size and features of this TV.


2) OLED is a curiosity for 99% of the buying public. There is no indication that reasonably priced 42 inch OLED panels are within 5 years. Every indication is that OLED is a Quantum leap in picture quality and if production costs and other issues are resolved, people will jump. But, for those of us more interested in 72 inch panels, OLED isn't even worth thinking about.


3) 21:9 TVs are also a curiosity at this poing and there is no indication that it will be a mass market set.


4) 4K resolution is going to remain a super premium product for years to come. Sony has had a $100K front projector for several years, but it is almost vaporware. The mass market is pretty happy with 1080P and BluRay.


5) Some companies like to push the envelope for various reasons. There are far more millionaires in this country than there were just 20 years ago, and the number of upper middle class people with incomes of $250,000 is substantial.


6) There will always be early adopters, and there is a premium to be paid for the latest technology, but the people who buy the newest tech can afford it. Just like they can afford to pay a higher rate of income taxes because they got a good education or have very marketable skills. It doesn't bother me if you want to call it an early adopters tax.


Right now there are a lot of people waiting to see how good the basic performance of a $3,500 480 Hz, back-lit, 480 zone local dimming, 72 inch LCD is going to be.


I would certainly agree that basic performance: clarity, detail, color accuracy, contrast, and viewing angle should not be sacrificed for 3-D and Widgets.


6 speed automatic transmissions are all any car needs. But people buy Mercedes S550s and the $65,000 Lexus LS460. There are tons of people driving Lexus R series SUVs. Typically professionals, but also two income households with grade-school teachers.


You might see more of these people if you worked at Magnolia rather than at Sears
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top