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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was shopping for a second TV and it had to be 37-inches with any bezel, or perhaps a 40-inch with a thin bezel. My primary TV is a 50-inch plasma, but plasmas are not available for TVs smaller than 42 inches. Likewise, full array LEDs are also not available in the smaller TV sizes, so I had to choose between a conventional CCFL LCD or an edge-lit LED/LCD.


I am only concerned with using my TV to watch HDTV. I'll take 3D if it costs the same, but will not pay much extra for it as I really do not enjoy it. I am not interested in internet apps on a TV; I have a PC for that which works much better. I AM interested in a natural-looking TV picture, and it would be really great if the TV had stereo sound output (headphones or direct) so I could use headphones without having to buy another expensive AV receiver.


I first purchased the Samsung UN40D6000 edge-lit LED/LCD. It had a great physical appearance (when turned off) , I liked the way I could get 40-inches out of a TV that was not much larger than most 37-inch TVs, and it had a bright and punchy picture in the stores. Unfortunately, the picture proved to be rather too punchy at home with a little too much contrast, crushed darks and cartoonish color. I am experienced with adjusting TV sets (my plasma is dialed in perfectly), but I was unable to obtain a natural looking picture on the Samsung un40D6000, and any attempts to lighten up the crushed darks caused the LED edge lighting glow to rear its ugly head. Sorry, but I am used to a near perfect plasma picture, so I returned to Samsung to the store.


Next I purchased an LG 37LK450 CCFL LCD. I made sure that I got one with an IPS panel with the chevron pixel pattern. To be brief, this TV is just great. The picture is very pleasing and natural with very little tweaking required, and of course the back-illumination is very uniform. Surprisingly good black levels as well due to the IPS panel. As a bonus, the LG included a headphone jack and was considerably less expensive than the LED/LCD TVs, though I would have paid a higher price to get it. It is that good.


It is my conclusion that edge-lit LED/LCDs are a big step backwards in picture quality when compared to a really good conventional CCFL LCD.


DelJ
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DelJ /forum/post/20873568



Unfortunately, the picture proved to be rather too punchy at home with a little too much contrast, crushed darks and cartoonish color. I am experienced with adjusting TV sets (my plasma is dialed in perfectly), but I was unable to obtain a natural looking picture on the Samsung un40D6000, and any attempts to lighten up the crushed darks caused the LED edge lighting glow to rear its ugly head.


DelJ

I disagree with this part of your story, because I know for a fact the D6000 series has extremely accurate out of the box color gamut, D65 white point and grayscale tracking. This is right out of the box once set to movie mode. A few user tweaks with a calibration disc, and the colors are dialed in to a point where professional calibration would be a silly investment from a color stand point.


Perhaps you were dealing with dynamic contrast being ON by accident (in advanced settings) while in movie or standard mode?


However, I will agree with you that in the case of the D6000, one can definitely see how a CCFL could be better then an Edge-lit LED, as the D6000 definitely suffers from the corner flash light effect, and some uniformity issues.


Many of Sammys 2010 CCFL panels were much better in those regards compared to the 2011 Edge lit LED sets. I think if Samsung wasn't trying to make the sets so paper thin, then the Edge lit LED line could be vastly improved upon. Unfortunately when a set is 1" thick, I would imagine that keeping a uniform picture would be challenging.


Glad to hear the LG is working out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I would have agreed with you in theory beforehand, as all the specs and reviews suggested that the Samsung LED should have been very good. I just couldn't get it to happen in practice. In particular, non of the color/gamma specs would have included the edge glow from the LED illuminators. I might have been more satisfied with the Samsung if I did not have my excellent LG PK950 plasma downstairs, which probably explains why my perception of the Samsung did not match the many good reviews received by the Samsung LED.


As I said, I am fairly experienced with the advanced TV settings, so nothing was left on by accident. As a matter of fact, the LG with dynamic contrast set to on (minimum) was still easier to watch than the Samsung.


It is also worth mentioning that I have not perceived much (if any) loss by watching the 60Hz LG compared to the 120 Hz Samsung, particularly since I would disable any motion smoothing.


DelJ



Quote:
Originally Posted by redwolf4k /forum/post/20873629


I disagree with this part of your story, because I know for a fact the D6000 series has extremely accurate out of the box color gamut, D65 white point and grayscale tracking. This is right out of the box once set to movie mode. A few user tweaks with a calibration disc, and the colors are dialed in to a point where professional calibration would be a silly investment from a color stand point.


Perhaps you were dealing with dynamic contrast being ON by accident (in advanced settings) while in movie or standard mode?


However, I will agree with you that in the case of the D6000, one can definitely see how a CCFL could be better then an Edge-lit LED, as the D6000 definitely suffers from the corner flash light effect, and some uniformity issues.


Many of Sammys 2010 CCFL panels were much better in those regards compared to the 2011 Edge lit LED sets. I think if Samsung wasn't trying to make the sets so paper thin, then the Edge lit LED line could be vastly improved upon. Unfortunately when a set is 1" thick, I would imagine that keeping a uniform picture would be challenging.


Glad to hear the LG is working out.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DelJ /forum/post/20874622


I would have agreed with you in theory beforehand, as all the specs and reviews suggested that the Samsung LED should have been very good. I just couldn't get it to happen in practice. In particular, non of the color/gamma specs would have included the edge glow from the LED illuminators. I might have been more satisfied with the Samsung if I did not have my excellent LG PK950 plasma downstairs, which probably explains why my perception of the Samsung did not match the many good reviews received by the Samsung LED.


As I said, I am fairly experienced with the advanced TV settings, so nothing was left on by accident. As a matter of fact, the LG with dynamic contrast set to on (minimum) was still easier to watch than the Samsung.


It is also worth mentioning that I have not perceived much (if any) loss by watching the 60Hz LG compared to the 120 Hz Samsung, particularly since I would disable any motion smoothing.


DelJ

The motion smoothing options on these TV's are completely worthless when it comes to watching movies or TV shows. I will say however, with Auto Motion enabled while watching Football or Hockey, it would crush the LG and it's 60hz refresh rate. If you don't watch sports or you watch them on your Plasma then I guess you have nothing to worry about.
 

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I've mentioned this before couple of times but that was long time ago...


- LED's consume less energy

- LED's can be made to produce "good" white - one that does not produce blue / green push like CCFL's. With CCFL sources, the blue / green push is compensated by push in red in TV processing, causing "bad" reds – unnatural / oversaturated reds...

- It is not easy to produce uniform light output along full CCFL tube length - special inverter boards are needed with individual high tension transformer for each CCFL tube - and this can be expensive!

- LED sources can be easily utilised in localised - area - dimmed LCD TV’s. This is not possible with full array CCFL backlit LCD TV’s.

- LED reaction time is instantaneous. CCFL reaction time is slower - hence dynamic contrast in CCFL backlit TV's is too slow / chopped.

-LED sets are thinner and lighter…


Boky
 

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CCFLs take time to warm up. LEDs don't. Also Samsung seems to have some undefeatable image processing. Samsung may have decided to favour pop at the expense of colour accuracy not just in their "store mode", but in general. My Samsung Galaxy S II has crazy pop (I know, it's a phone, different tech, but still). The colours on the iPhone 4 look much more natural.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DelJ /forum/post/20873568


It is my conclusion that edge-lit LED/LCDs are a big step backwards in picture quality when compared to a really good conventional CCFL LCD.

DelJ

True.

I used to be a huge fan in this LCD forum until Samsung quietly went to edge lit LCD about three years ago. They acted as if they nothing had clanged, but we here at AVS put them through the wringer.

I posted a picture of the ambitious Samsung VP who was responsible for the change to edge lit. The someone touched her up to make her look like a rat.


It got so out of control the moderator said we should be ashamed of ourselves.
Samsung went on to make huge profits selling 55" thin panels for well over $4K to clueless consumers followed by three years of whining.


Again it took consumers (as a whole) three years to catch-up and understand the drawbacks of edge lit flat panels. The bigger the panel, the greater the distance and the worse the non uniformity looks.


This route has actually stunted the growth of LCD panel size. Last year Samsung wanted $6500 for their 65" with medicore performance. Very narrow viewing angle too. Clearly Samsung has gone down the path to a dead end. Another Samsung mistake is the super glossy panels which show too many reflections while not improving the panels themselves. Consumer Reports rates several Samsung "C" models form last year as superior to this years "D" models.


So what is the solution? Why a full array back-plane LED lighting. With or without local dimming. The greater the native/inherit contrast of the panel, the less need there is for local dimming. This is why we see a new brighter generation of Sharp 70" panels for $3K. Now the 70" 3D 735 has just been released for 3.7K.


As a result LG and Samsung have already dropped their 65" 3D prices. Sony still wants $6K all for themselves at Sonystyle. Hope they stay in business.


I think true, full-resolution active 3D of the 70" Sharp 735 will put the passive camp into crisis mode. (they already are).


Hopefully it won't take consumers another three years know a good thing when they see it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Perhaps you should stop mentioning these three points. Any uniformity issue with CCFL is very small compared to the huge uniformity problems with edge-lit LEDs, and since CCFL is the lowest cost technology overall I don't any point in mentioning that the CCFL inverter boards are expensive. Also, edge-lit LEDs do not lend themselves to local dimming very well.


This thread is about edge-lit LEDs. We all know that full-array LEDs are good.


DelJ



Quote:
Originally Posted by Extreme_Boky /forum/post/20876189


I've mentioned this before couple of times but that was long time ago...


- It is not easy to produce uniform light output along full CCFL tube length

- special inverter boards are needed with individual high tension transformer for each CCFL tube - and this can be expensive!

- LED sources can be easily utilised in localised - area - dimmed LCD TV’s. This is not possible with full array CCFL backlit LCD TV’s.


Boky
 

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normal lcd is better than lcd edge led this is not an opinion is a fact.

most people buy lcd edge led just because marketing, than they say is a great tv because dont have other to compare (compare tv on big markets worth 0).

lcd edge led have good image quality but the problem is the crap racio price/performance, if you can buy something better and cheaper why you will buy something that have worst IQ and is more expensive?

answer:

1)marketing

2)you dont know what are you buying or dont have info abouts tv market


PS: lcd fullled and lcd edge led is like nigh and day....the diference in performance is very huge
 

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I'm a fan of CCFL and full-array local dimming LED.


Problem is I don't think I'll find a quality successor to my Samsung A850 (CCFL LCD).


The Samsung B8500 was a HDTV of interest, but as its been mentioned already - Samsung stopped making High-End full-array local dimming LED sets.


The Sharp Elite looks great but too large and expensive for my taste.


If I had to go edge-lit I'd get the Samsung D6400, but its still a step down from current and past CCFL models like the excellent Samsung C650s.


Plasmas like the Samsung D7000 are looking better every day (thanks to edge-lit HDTVs).
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PiratesCove /forum/post/20877402


I'm a fan of CCFL and full-array local dimming LED.


Problem is I don't think I'll find a quality successor to my Samsung A850 (CCFL LCD).


The Samsung B8500 was a HDTV of interest, but as its been mentioned already - Samsung stopped making High-End full-array local dimming LED sets.


The Sharp Elite looks great but too large and expensive for my taste.


If I had to go edge-lit I'd get the Samsung D6400, but its still a step down from current and past CCFL models like the excellent Samsung C650s.


Plasmas like the Samsung D7000 are looking better every day (thanks to edge-lit HDTVs).

I'd pretty much have to express that same sentiment. I picked up the UN46D7000 last weekend. Tonight I boxed it up and it will be returned tomorrow.


I put my aging A850 back in its place.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cl0ckw0rk /forum/post/20879413


I'd pretty much have to express that same sentiment. I picked up the UN46D7000 last weekend. Tonight I boxed it up and it will be returned tomorrow.


I put my aging A850 back in its place.

Yeah, its kinda sad....I hope Samsung's models next year focus mainly on Picture Quality.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Extreme_Boky
I've mentioned this before couple of times but that was long time ago...


- LED's consume less energy

- LED's can be made to produce "good" white - one that does not produce blue / green push like CCFL's. With CCFL sources, the blue / green push is compensated by push in red in TV processing, causing "bad" reds – unnatural / oversaturated reds...

- It is not easy to produce uniform light output along full CCFL tube length - special inverter boards are needed with individual high tension transformer for each CCFL tube - and this can be expensive!

- LED sources can be easily utilised in localised - area - dimmed LCD TV’s. This is not possible with full array CCFL backlit LCD TV’s.

- LED reaction time is instantaneous. CCFL reaction time is slower - hence dynamic contrast in CCFL backlit TV's is too slow / chopped.

-LED sets are thinner and lighter…


Boky
I agree with you Boky. Until I owned an edge lit set I thought CCFL was superior to edge lit in every way except not as thin. Then I got a Samsung 2011 UN55D6000 as a replacement set for a defective 2010 LN55C630.


The colors are much much more accurate on the UN55D6000 (right out of the box). Even after much tweeking on my c630, the colors did not look nearly as good.


The darkness of the black level is essentially the same in the sets, but the shadow details are far superior in the D6000. This is all post calibration on both sets. Dark scenes are so much nicer to look at in my D6000.


The sharpness of the D6000 is also better. It is almost as if the c630 had a non-defeatable smoothing filter.


The uniformity is better in the c630, but in every other aspect the d6000 is superior. You can see it with the backlight turned up in a pitch black room. With a small light behind the TV and the backlight down, the uniformity issues are essentially undetectable.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by elucid_one
I agree with you Boky. Until I owned an edge lit set I thought CCFL was superior to edge lit in every way except not as thin. Then I got a Samsung 2011 UN55D6000 as a replacement set for a defective 2010 LN55C630.


The colors are much much more accurate on the UN55D6000 (right out of the box). Even after much tweeking on my c630, the colors did not look nearly as good.


The darkness of the black level is essentially the same in the sets, but the shadow details are far superior in the D6000. This is all post calibration on both sets. Dark scenes are so much nicer to look at in my D6000.


The sharpness of the D6000 is also better. It is almost as if the c630 had a non-defeatable smoothing filter.


The uniformity is better in the c630, but in every other aspect the d6000 is superior. You can see it with the backlight turned up in a pitch black room. With a small light behind the TV and the backlight down, the uniformity issues are essentially undetectable.
I have the un556050 and I agree completely. If you tame the backlight critical viewing is extremely impressive. However, even with the backlight all the way up, the sets screen and filter do an impressive job of creating very nice black levels, regardless of any corner flash lighting. The colors on the D6000/D6050 are nearly perfect in movie mode. No need for any professional calibration in the color department.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mile13
You guys can say whatever you want I will never buy a Edge-Lit.
No matter how you slice it or how much one does not want to admit it, edge lit was a marketing ploy led by Samsung to deceive consumers that this was a completely new technology by naming them "LED Tv's".


And please people, let us stop saying "more energy efficient" as an advantage as .20 a month worth of savings is a joke.


To the poster who came from a C630, the biggest perceived difference is in the high contrast filter (the glossy screen). If you had purchased the C670 instead, I am sure the perception would have differed.
 
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