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I'm not following you. Are you saying that the JVC imperfections were highly visible when content was displayed because you "heard" that was the case? But then in the same sentence you say that the JVC wasn't calibrated. Are you now defending the JVC and questioning Sony? And finally, you say you left because the projectors were "so far off." But the point of the Sony comparison was resolution, not color accuracy in this specific demo.


All of which misses the point which is that it was Sony's shootout, not JVCs, yet it underscored that when you evaluate only how content is presented with the naked eye, the basic JVC is an incredibly, incredibly good value. Up against a much more expensive projector, it held its own.
I am saying that several people that were closer to the screens than me said the differences between the Sony and JVC were not dramatic. You can ask Craig Peer his opinion as he owns both a Sony and JVC.

I left, because the Sony guy made it sound like they calibrated all of the projectors. It wasn't a passing statement either. Read this thread.
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/24-digital-hi-end-projectors-3-000-usd-msrp/2581705-sony-projector-shootout-cedia-2016-comparing-real-4k-vs-faux-k.html
 

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In fairness to the Apogge's this was about 20 years ago when I compared them to the Magnepans and the ML CLS's. I'm sure they have improved since then. I totally agree about how critical the integration between the drivers is to the coherence of the sound. This is the area that really amazed me when I first heard the Alcons about 15 months ago. This coherent integration was the main takeaway (along with the wide dispersion imaging) from our listen sessions at INFOCOMM.[/URL]
No you're spot on regarding your Apogee observation, and I am actually surprised that anyone would nail that on this forum - nice. I lived with multiple Apogee's (and Magnepan/Martin Logan) and for example the Diva's sound would frequently remind me of a beautiful but cold and heartless Diva (no pun intended). Grand piano magically sounds like it's in your room, like no speaker I've ever heard before or since, but the cold metallic character eventually got to me. That's why it's my ex.

Loudness gate :) aside (sorry Peter I can't resist) I don't doubt the quality of Alcons at all, especially from multiple reports from what appear to me "seasoned audiophile" owners on this forum.

BTW, to my ears, the integration of a 3 way hybrid like the Alcon (ribbon tweeter, cone mid and bass) has always seemed to be easier and better than a 2 way. The one configuration that has never worked for me is a2 way ribbon tweeter with a large 10" woofer: nearly invariably I hear a fast, airy sound on top, and a lump thump thump woofer below.

PS Your forum name keeps reminding of the school I attended for 10 years as a kid: Lasalle Taberd.
 

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No you're spot on regarding your Apogee observation, and I am actually surprised that anyone would nail that on this forum - nice. I lived with multiple Apogee's and eg the Diva's reminds me of a beautiful but cold and heartless Diva (no pun intended). Grand piano magically sounds like it's in your room, like no speaker I've ever heard before or since, but the cold metallic character eventually got to listener. That's why it's my ex.
I first owned the smaller Apogees and then the Diva. LOVED them and they would do some things that no speaker I have owned since has been able to do -- including fry some really great amps !!
 

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I first owned the smaller Apogees and then the Diva. LOVED them and they would do some things that no speaker I have owned since has been able to do -- including fry some really great amps !!
You mean your amps couldn't drive an Arc Welder:eek:,
I believe the big Krells were the weapon of choice back then.
 

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BTW, to my ears, the integration of a 3 way hybrid like the Alcon (ribbon tweeter, cone mid and bass) has always seemed to be easier and better than a 2 way. The one configuration that has never worked for me is a2 way ribbon tweeter with a large 10" woofer: nearly invariably I hear a fast, airy sound on top, and a lump thump thump woofer below.
My observation as well, coherent driver integration down to 40-30Hz for me was always a challenge. The best I could do was the CLS's integrated with a very fast musical sub below 100Hz, but it was never quite right. Ultimately I ended up with the Duntech Sovereigns.
 

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You mean your amps couldn't drive an Arc Welder:eek:,
I believe the big Krells were the weapon of choice back then.
I used Krell Monoblocks and they worked fine. As did the early amps from Jeff Rowland. Nothing else could last.
 

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What is interesting about "loudness gate" in this thread, even given the potential pitfalls of show condition evaluation, is that for me it was a "quick and dirty" study of how loud this sample of AVS members tolerated. The recorded peaks by a number of people showed 102-104 dB at seat, and this led to several complaints of excessive loudness.


Coming from the world of high end audio where demos rarely trigger triple digit spl (Have you ever tried to listen to solo violin at 100 dB? :)), I've heard stories of home theater demos running at 110 dB and 120 dB and always wondered how people could tolerate this for more than a few minutes. 104 dB makes a lot more sense to me - audiophiles and home theater geeks have the same hearing mechanism after all. :)
 

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I like "LOUD" AVS posts.

I do not care for too "LOUD" home theater demos! Too fatiguing!

I prefer home theater like I prefer 2 channel music - where the voicing, music and instruments are clear; where explosions and gunshots are fast and tight and can surprise you;
and where both home theater and audio are very musical with the subwoofer settings the same for both!

But that's just me!!!???:)
 

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My observation as well, coherent driver integration down to 40-30Hz for me was always a challenge. The best I could do was the CLS's integrated with a very fast musical sub below 100Hz, but it was never quite right.
Being a fan of electrostatics, I found the same. My CLS's were assisted by an Audio Pro B2-50, a compact dual 8" push-pull gem.

I should've kept that system!


Ken Whitcomb
 

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I like "LOUD" AVS posts.

I do not care for too "LOUD" home theater demos! Too fatiguing!

I prefer home theater like I prefer 2 channel music - where the voicing, music and instruments are clear; where explosions and gunshots are fast and tight and can surprise you;
and where both home theater and audio are very musical with the subwoofer settings the same for both!

But that's just me!!!???:)
My wife agrees with you Steve - she told me to turn down " 10 Cloverfield Lane " last night after the car crash scene. I like movies loud, but even reference level is usually a bit too loud.
 

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One caveat I would like to add regarding loudness gate's 104 dB is that if the level was obtained by smart phone, it may under-read and actual level may be higher. Above 100 dB, my iphone appears to under-read my Rat Shack by about 3-4 dB. Anyway I do understand vendors' desire to crank it up in a multi-row large room demo. 104 dB first row may only be 98 dB tenth row so cranking up is the only way to spread the wealth and impress all in the room. I listened to the most dynamic CD in my collection yesterday (O-Zone La Bamba), 104 dB is loud, and 110 is outright deafening, literally.

Another interesting question that I can't find an answer to is the relationship between frequency and ear damage. Because the ear-brain perceives different frequencies at different levels (Fletcher-Munson's equal loudness contour curve), where some incredible 30-40 dB differential exists between 20 hz and 1 hz, I imagine the bass-heads among us :) have to crank up the bass relative to midrange to achieve same loudness. So does 120 dB at 20 hz damages the ear the same way as 120 dB at 1 khz? (I know my ear hurts more at 1 khz.) Any expert/neuro scientist could answer this? (Kal?)
 

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I first owned the smaller Apogees and then the Diva. LOVED them and they would do some things that no speaker I have owned since has been able to do -- including fry some really great amps !!
Fellow Diva owner?! I too went from Caliper then to Diva, then Diva Grand (with subwoofer). I can't remember the setup anymore but pretty sure there was external X-over involved and 3 Krell amps and possibly a fourth Aragon amp: MDA 300 monoblock, KSA 250, and KSA 150. I have not heard grand piano sound the same again.

I sold the Diva to someone obviously a tad nuttier than me :): a Diva owner who bought mine to store, in a temperature regulated room he said, as back up parts.

Judging from cost of Audio Analysis (present day Apogee twin), the Diva would cost around $30k nowadays.
 

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What is interesting about "loudness gate" in this thread, even given the potential pitfalls of show condition evaluation, is that for me it was a "quick and dirty" study of how loud this sample of AVS members tolerated. The recorded peaks by a number of people showed 102-104 dB at seat, and this led to several complaints of excessive loudness.


Coming from the world of high end audio where demos rarely trigger triple digit spl (Have you ever tried to listen to solo violin at 100 dB? :)), I've heard stories of home theater demos running at 110 dB and 120 dB and always wondered how people could tolerate this for more than a few minutes. 104 dB makes a lot more sense to me - audiophiles and home theater geeks have the same hearing mechanism after all. :)
As I understand it the decibel level and exposure time are more critical to the possibility of hearing loss than the frequency of the noise. This is an interesting graphic (that shows time periods for certain decibel levels before permanent hearing damage occurs):



Certainly in the UK employers can face very large fines and legal action if they allow employees to be exposed to 85dB for short periods in a working day, or 87dB at any one point in a working day, without forcing the use of hearing protection.

Certainly the levels some have recorded at this demo would seem quite risky in terms of the possibility of causing permanent hearing damage - given the somewhat litigious nature of the US legal system, and the value presumably many of the attendees (as AV professionals or enthusiasts) might place on their continued good hearing, it surprises me that the people putting on the demo would take such a risk!
 
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