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Discussion Starter #1
I hope this isn't a touchy subject but I purchased some subs and a amp from CHT in the past and found out tonight that they are no longer around as a company and then formed a new company (Chane home theater) which now has almost no products on that site and seems to sell products from a thread on a forum at HTS. Maybe it's just me but I don't feel comfortable with that setup.

Anyways my current system is 2 VS-18.1 subs and a Dayton SA1000 Amplifier. For those components I feel I should be getting much more booming and shaking going on, I've spent a lot of time moving the beast of a subs around trying different spots, changing phase, verifying the crossover, running the audysey setup and even had a audysey pro calibration done on my reciever which is currently a Denon 4820CI and I am pretty confident I had almost the same output from my Klipsch 12" I had a few years ago. Maybe the amp is bad/weak, it definelty turns on and puts out some sound - its just bass that you can "hear" more so than bass you can "feel". I would think that system should reverebrate through my body at times like it does in my car.

I've been doing a lot of reading, and feel pretty comfortable with Power Sound Audio, and am currently on the fence between the XS30se, S3000i, and the S3000. I don't know from a "technical" standpoint how to determine the proper size subs for my room (16.5'x28.5'x8') but I am upgrading to a denon AVR-X7200W and am adding 4 Speakercraft AIM8 Three in-ceiling speakers to my existing 9.2 setup. I want sub setup that will really pound.

One additional thing worth mentioning is that this is in my basement, with carpeted floors and a door to the utility room that is almost always open for the dogs plus there is the stairs which don't have a door at all. I am guessing the openness of the room contributes to the lower bass output but it is really disappointing in it's current state.

There is a XS30SE for $1186 in the outlet center, the S3000 is $1399 and the S3000i is $1599. If you guys feel the S3000i would be what I need for my room size, I could manage the cost but would need to try to sell my current setup first which would likely be a challenge as Ebay is out of the question with shipping and the local poop of craigslist potential buyers around minneapolis is likely small. For all i know the system I have now may be good, and just underpowered I do recall that chase offered a upgraded amp a year or so after I bought my system but of course that isn't a option now and I can't even find the specs of my current amp - the Dayton SA1000 that I see on partsexpress doesn't look like the one I have at all and mine doesn't list specifications on the amp itself either unfortunately.
 

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The SA1000 puts out:
- 497W into 8 ohms (i.e., one 8-ohm sub); and
- 950W into 4 ohms (i.e., one 4-ohm sub, or two 8-ohm subs @ ~475W/sub).


What volume to you play at? Do you run your subs "hot" at all? If your subs aren't hitting hard enough, you could replace the Dayton amp with something like an iNuke 3000DSP or 6000DSP. Plenty more power + some DSP tweaking flexibility.


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FWIW: With a pair of SS-18.1s + SA1000 in a room slightly smaller than yours (~3,400 cu.ft. vs. your ~3,700 cu.ft.), I found that bass was decent but not great unless I ran the subs a few (3-6) dBs "hot" and cranked the volume up to around -10dB or higher. After adding a pair of DIY sealed subs with UXL-18s and an iNuke 6000DSP, I get considerably better performance even at regular listening volumes of -18dB to -16dB.
 

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The VS 18.1 are way better than Klipsch and should spank them. Your room is close to 4000 cu ft. A better amp as suggested is a start. For that size room you may just need a couple more subs to up the spl and balance out the FR. You need to measure and see were the problem is in the FR. I loved my VS 18.1's subs but, two was not enough for the 5300 cu ft. space.

I would not sell them because most subs under a grand will not be better. You can also replace the driver with an SI or Dayton Ultimax.
 

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I had an SA-1000, it was good for 2 sealed drivers, are you running them in parallel for the 4 ohm load? I now have an iNuke 6000DSP for 4 sealed 18", and have no desire to upgrade.


The VS-18.1 ratings on Data-bass.com have some of the best figures for output available for a $400 passive system, maybe you have the Sub1 amp that was the lowest priced amp at the time?


Craig is selling off his inventory on hometheatershack, and can be contacted there. I'm sure he'd be glad to talk with you. He still has the MQ-600 amp in stock with about 2000 watts capable for your subs.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
The SA1000 puts out:
- 497W into 8 ohms (i.e., one 8-ohm sub); and
- 950W into 4 ohms (i.e., one 4-ohm sub, or two 8-ohm subs @ ~475W/sub).


What volume to you play at? Do you run your subs "hot" at all? If your subs aren't hitting hard enough, you could replace the Dayton amp with something like an iNuke 3000DSP or 6000DSP. Plenty more power + some DSP tweaking flexibility.




__________________
FWIW: With a pair of SS-18.1s + SA1000 in a room slightly smaller than yours (~3,400 cu.ft. vs. your ~3,700 cu.ft.), I found that bass was decent but not great unless I ran the subs a few (3-6) dBs "hot" and cranked the volume up to around -10dB or higher. After adding a pair of DIY sealed subs with UXL-18s and an iNuke 6000DSP, I get considerably better performance even at regular listening volumes of -18dB to -16dB.
For general TV I have it around -15 or so I'd say, movies generally closer to 0. If I turn the volume up the subs just sound "bad". I ran audysey and it set them around -8 (after setting the amp to around 25% to get the reading from the audysey mic around 75%). I left it at that for a bit and had almost no bass whatsoever so I increased the sub to about -3d and increased the control on the amp itself to around 40-45%. If I turn either setting up much higher it all it just sounds really bad - I don't know how to describe it other than it sounds like it's being over driven. I can hear the "high" bass and not much on the lower side. I will check out the iNuke and see what I can come up with along with another suggestion below.

When you say "hot", do you mean increasing the sub level on the receiver to higher levels (+0) or increasing the bass in the equalizer? I haven't ever touched the equalizer after audysey did it's measurements.

The VS-18.1 let alone a pair should destroy your 12" klipsch....something is not right. I suggest getting familiar with REW and take some room measurements.
I have been debating getting a Mic to use with REW, the $75 price is seemingly steep but maybe worth every penny I suppose if it can improve my setup a lot. Maybe I can get lucky and find a used one :)

I had an SA-1000, it was good for 2 sealed drivers, are you running them in parallel for the 4 ohm load? I now have an iNuke 6000DSP for 4 sealed 18", and have no desire to upgrade.


The VS-18.1 ratings on Data-bass.com have some of the best figures for output available for a $400 passive system, maybe you have the Sub1 amp that was the lowest priced amp at the time?


Craig is selling off his inventory on hometheatershack, and can be contacted there. I'm sure he'd be glad to talk with you. He still has the MQ-600 amp in stock with about 2000 watts capable for your subs.
I have them 2 subs hooked up directly to the amp - it has 2 sets of terminals so I just connected 1 sub to each set - are you suggesting a different way may be better?

The Sub1 name does sound very familiar, my order from from them just specifies a Dayton SA1000 but Sub1 is ringing some bells and i recall they offered a better amp a year or so after i got my system and the MQ-600 again sounds familiar as the better amp. Would you suggest the MQ600 over a iNuke for example?

Thanks guys I really appreciate the feedback! :)
 

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codee said:
When you say "hot", do you mean increasing the sub level on the receiver to higher levels (+0) or increasing the bass in the equalizer? I haven't ever touched the equalizer after audysey did it's measurements.
By "hot" I mean raising the subwoofer level in the AVR's speaker set-up menu by 3-6dB above whatever the Audyssey calibration set it to.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
By "hot" I mean raising the subwoofer level in the AVR's speaker set-up menu by 3-6dB above whatever the Audyssey calibration set it to.
That's whay I was guessing but it's always best to clarify so I know we're on the same page :D -I did increase it after the audyssey calibration was done although it's still below 0, Audyssey put it at -8 so I put it at -3 to notice the bass at all.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Right now the subs are in thr front 2 corners but I've tried many places and it doesn't seem to have much impact at all one way or the other. Phase is currently at 0, I've tried the other extreme on the phase know with no difference noted either. I "hear" the upper frequencies but can't feel or hear the lower ones.

How would I go about testing the amp output?

One other thing that came to mind is that the fronts are set to "large" and the sub is set to lfe+main and the sub crossover is set at 250/bypassed on the receiver. Could it be something so simple as needing to set the crossover for the sub to something lower? Thst never crossed my mind until just now... The lfe channel would send the correct info but if it's set to lfe+mains and the mains are set to large maybe that's causing my issues?
 

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Re. phase: I was thinking more along the line that either:
- "externally", the connections from Dayton amp to the subs are not the same; or
- "internally", one of the drivers is wired incorrectly.

I'm not familiar with a receiver crossover setting of "250/bypass"- what receiver are you using? (Meanwhile, I'll suggest you try setting all speakers to "small", use a crossover of 80Hz and don't run in LFE+Main mode.)

Also, what input are you using on the Dayton? You should be using the LFE input, which bypasses the Dayton's LPF ("crossover").
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Re. phase: I was thinking more along the line that either:
- "externally", the connections from Dayton amp to the subs are not the same; or
- "internally", one of the drivers is wired incorrectly.

I'm not familiar with a receiver crossover setting of "250/bypass"- what receiver are you using? (Meanwhile, I'll suggest you try setting all speakers to "small", use a crossover of 80Hz and don't run in LFE+Main mode.)

Also, what input are you using on the Dayton? You should be using the LFE input, which bypasses the Dayton's LPF ("crossover").
I'm currently using a Denon AVR-4520ci, and there is a setting for the sub crossover and mine is currently set at the highest which is 250Hz.

I will try your suggestions regarding setting the speakers to small and checking those crossover settings when I get home when in a few hours and report back :)

Would you suggest leaving the sub crossover at 250 or changing it to something such as 80 which seems to be more in line with the other speakers cutoff?

Thanks again!
 

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I'm currently using a Denon AVR-4520ci, and there is a setting for the sub crossover and mine is currently set at the highest which is 250Hz.

I will try your suggestions regarding setting the speakers to small and checking those crossover settings when I get home when in a few hours and report back :)

Would you suggest leaving the sub crossover at 250 or changing it to something such as 80 which seems to be more in line with the other speakers cutoff?

Thanks again!
There's your problem right there. :)

Your crossover should be set to around 80-100hz. What are your main speakers and where did Audyssey set the crossovers?

I think you may have been confused when setting the crossover so (insanely) high....the crossovers on the subs should be set as high as they will go to essentially defeat them so the crossovers can be handled solely by the AVR. If you can defeat the crossovers on your subs, all the better.

Depending on how large of woofers you have in your mains, setting them to LARGE and using LFE+MAIN can work, but unless you have the ability to measure your response (and I see you don't...yet) it's not advisable to do so.

I have been debating getting a Mic to use with REW, the $75 price is seemingly steep but maybe worth every penny I suppose if it can improve my setup a lot. Maybe I can get lucky and find a used one
A proper calibrated mic is closer to $100. ;)
 

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http://www.manualslib.com/manual/452270/Denon-Avr-4520ci.html?page=147#manual

Im trying to post this on my iPad so fingers crossed but page 147 of the manual, bottom right side is that sub frequency setting that I'm referring too.
That is the LPF for LFE setting and should be set to 120hz.

This puts a "cap" on the LFE channel only and has nothing to do with the crossover from your speakers to the subs.

The changes you want to make to the crossovers is on the left side of that same page in the manual. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter #16
There's your problem right there. :)

Your crossover should be set to around 80-100hz. What are your main speakers and where did Audyssey set the crossovers?

I think you may have been confused when setting the crossover so (insanely) high....the crossovers on the subs should be set as high as they will go to essentially defeat them so the crossovers can be handled solely by the AVR. If you can defeat the crossovers on your subs, all the better.

Depending on how large of woofers you have in your mains, setting them to LARGE and using LFE+MAIN can work, but unless you have the ability to measure your response (and I see you don't...yet) it's not advisable to do so.



A proper calibrated mic is closer to $100. ;)
My speakers are all Klipsch currently aside from the center channel which is a def tech CS-8080HD (so new it's in the return period still!)

Other speakers are -

Front L/R = RF82
Front high = RS52
SB/SS = RS42

Crossover on the fronts is either 40 or 60 I believe, I would have to check when I get home though to be sure. The surrounds and center channel are set to 80 though, I know that for sure. The 5 "main" speakers are connected to a Emotiva XPA5.

I will be attempting these adjustments as soon as I get home :)

Thanks!
 

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^^^

Yup, set all speakers to small/80hz, LPF for LFE to 120hz and let us know! I bet it's going to make quite a difference for you. ;)
 

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My speakers are all Klipsch currently aside from the center channel which is a def tech CS-8080HD (so new it's in the return period still!)
Why not a matching Klipsch center? :confused:

If I was you, I'd return that DefTech and get an RC-62 (or, if you're feeling rich, an RC-64 ;) ), it will have a much better timbre match to the rest of your speakers.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Why not a matching Klipsch center? :confused:

If I was you, I'd return that DefTech and get an RC-62 (or, if you're feeling rich, an RC-64 ;) ), it will have a much better timbre match to the rest of your speakers.
I actually have a RC-52 that I just replaced for no good reason at all actually, it sounded much...different than I was used to that's for sure haha I reran audyssey and it sounded better but definetly a different sound in general. Maybe I should return it and stick with the klipsch though :confused:
 

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Sorry, to make so many separate posts, but I just noticed this:

Front high = RS52
You really should have direct radiators for FH speakers. I'm using RB-51s and they work great. There's at least a couple folks in the Klipsch thread using RB-41s with good results as well.
 
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