[emueyes]

I've almost finished assembling my first attempt at a planned audio setup. I'm happy with things so far, and a subwoofer is the next step. Rear/surrounds are going to be very difficult indeed to place properly, see the floorplan, but hopefully a sub will be easy enough to place. I've included everything I can think of that might be relevant, but the question briefly is whether to get a ported or sealed unit. I've done a bit of reading on this, have some ideas, but I'm looking at a budget of around $700, a fairly large purchase for me, and as speakers are something know little about I'd rather be guided by knowledgeable people with first hand experience. I have done some reading, and I think it's a fairly clear decision as to what kind of speaker would suit me, my room, my music and budget.


I really like the SVS units, the SB-1000 and PB-1000. They get great praise everywhere I've read, and I haven't heard of any misfortunes with them. I'm not overly impressed with the Monitor Audio sub in the Bronze range that I've been buying from, it seems to be quite overpriced. The Bronze range seems to have a sweet spot of value for money for the BX2s, but the sub steps out from that.


The SVS units


SVS SB-1000
http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/sealed-box/SB-1000


SVS PB-1000
http://www.svsound.com/subwoofers/ported-box/PB-1000


I've looked at and researched a few other subs, the BIC PL-200, the Outlaw Audio LFM-1 Plus, but given the fairly loose coupling between a reviewer and the client (me) I came away liking the SVS gear more. Did I underestimate the other subs ? SVS also make 12" subs, would that be worthwhile given the large increase in cost, or simply excessive ?



Gear I have already:


Denon AVR-X1000 receiver
http://au.denon.com/au/Product/Pages/Product-Detail.aspx?CatId=20ea224d-25b8-4cb0-bff0-e17b72b04593&SubId=b317010e-18ac-4dee-ab7a-5d374a9c8050&ProductId=AVR-X1000


Monitor Audio Bronze BX2 front
http://www.monitoraudio.com.au/products/bronze-bx/bx2/


Monitor Audio Bronze BX Centre
http://www.monitoraudio.com.au/products/bronze-bx/bx-centre/


I have a home built computer/HTPC as source, with content aiming for high quality high bitrate video and flac audio using WASAPI.



The attachment is a reasonable diagram of the lounge / listening area. Grey objects are bookshelves / cabinets, blue is furnishing & curtains. The solid red boxes are my speakers (drawn to scale !). The hatched red boxes are some possible locations for a sub. The space is fairly small, 1548 cubic feet, carpeted. The two openings in the walls are open archways leading to the kitchen and the hallway. The swinging door at the rear is the front door. It's a bit over 2m (6 1/2') between the lounge and the TV.


The shelving on the back walls breaks up reflections nicely, but the TV/front speaker area is cramped and I can't do much about it. The area is reasonably small, too, given that I really only use the 'front' half of it, ie the half closest to the TV.


The centre speaker is sitting on 75cm of concrete building blocks and are at almost ear level when seated, the fronts are sitting on styrofoam that's sitting on an old pair of speakers, hardly ideal but the foam seems to stops resonance and again puts them at ear level. I'd be most interested in other ways to mount the small (35cm tall) BX2 speakers. I've seen steel tubing stands for hundreds of dollars, surely there's a better/cheaper way? I can't attach them to the wall, this is a rental unit, and sitting them on the floor would make them too low I think.


There's no plans for extra zones or extra amps (the X1000 sold here in Australia is different to the one sold in the USA, it has no pre- out, most noticeably). I may investigate USB - S/PDIF devices at some stage but that won't affect anything else. And I hope to devise something better for the BX2s to sit on (more concrete blocks standing on end?). Otherwise, no major changes foreseen.


One review site summarised the subwoofer issue, and the purpose of this post :


" If you have the room, and you want to get loud, go with a ported box. If you're limited on space or are looking for the best sound quality possible, it would generally be best to go with a sealed box. "

http://www.klausaudio.com/subwoofer-box-articles/sealed-vs.-ported.php


And that seems to be a consensus from all I've read. From my reading, it seems sealed boxes are more accurate and tend to be best in a small listening environment, while ported boxes will produce a louder, 'larger' sound, though perhaps at the expense of a little distortion, and they commonly use much larger cabinets. That's certainly the case with the PB-1000 / SB-1000.


Also, I tend to listen to a lot of 'alternate' music, with hard electronic drums - Dead Can Dance, Moby, and also something softer - Mazzy Star, Sarah Blasko, where IMHO a clean drum and bass is far more important than a loud one. I don't imagine for one second that ported subs suffer from the boombox maladay that affects a lot of people, but I have a small apartment, don't push the amp up to anything beyond 'a bit loud' and really appreciate what one of my friends calls 'complicated' music- that which has many tracks mixed down.


I've discovered the 77 page thread on the SB-1000 and PB-1000, exactly what I want! I'll be eagerly reading that. I wrote this in a text editor, being not quite sure where best to post it, came here and noticed a massive helpful thread that probably answers all my questions, but thought I'd post this now it's written, there may be some very strong opinions and while I'm not going to buy anything immediately it'd help to know I'm heading in the right direction.


So that is where I am. The ported or non ported SVS units, or other suggestions. The SB-1000 seems to fit my use case very well, but .. I'm sure there's a but, somewhere, there always is. It looks to me like I may just have enough information and a long discussion, in a kindly serendipitous finding.


Many thanks for any thoughts on this.

 

[bear123]


In my opinion, sealed for music and ported for movies is not a very accurate generality.  I am more of the opinion that, all else being equal(as in PB2000 vs SB2000), the ported sub excels at movies, and does equally well for music.  The sealed variant will do equally well with music, but not superior, but will have less output around the ported subs port tune, and requires substantial room gain from an appropriate sized room in order to be viable, although still somewhat less effective, for movies.  So its not so much that sealed are better for music, but rather, are worse for movies.  A ported sub will have very strong output in the 18-30 Hz region(or lower depending on design) regardless of how large the room is.   And they get the same benefit of room gain down to their port tune in a small room, so they tend to keep their advantage in this area compared to a sealed sub even in a small room that works well for sealed.

 

That's not to say that lots of sealed with lots of power cant be good for movies..this is usually the preferred path of many as you go up substantially in cost.

 

So the main reason to choose sealed over ported, in my opinion, is if you just can't fit or don't want a larger ported sub in your space, or if you do not care about having strong LFE for movies.  Now in my case, I chose a sealed sub over ported for dual purpose movies and music, but I also have two 15" drivers in the same size enclosure that most 12" ported subs use.  The extra excursion offered by dual 15's is required to level the playing field between a similar single 12 or 15" ported sub in the lower frequencies.

 

Also of note, sealed subs will typically have lower extension compared to ported subs, as they have a shallow roll off with more output once you drop below a ported subs tuning frequency.

 

In your room, you will start to get room gain in the low 30 Hz region which offsets the roll off of a sealed sub starting around this frequency.

 

[basshead81]

i would probably look at the Rythmik LV12, HSU VTF-2 MK4, or SVS PB12NSD in the Outlet section when available.

 

[Hopinater]


Let me say that I agree with bear regarding the ported and sealed subs.

 

I also agree with basshead regarding the subs he mentions.

 

However, allow me to offer another thought. You say you have a budget of around $700. If you could bump it up a little more, say closer to $800, I think you could get a lot more sub. I'm thinking of the Outlaw EX, the Hsu VTF-3 MK4, or the PSA XV15. I know it's annoying when money is tight and someone says to up your budget, but moving the budget from $700 to $800 opens you up the next level of subwoofers. That's $100 well spent IMO.

 

[basshead81]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopinater  /t/1523044/choosing-new-sub-have-read-as-much-as-i-can-find-seeking-opinion#post_24496367


Let me say that I agree with bear regarding the ported and sealed subs.


I also agree with basshead regarding the subs he mentions.


However, allow me to offer another thought. You say you have a budget of around $700. If you could bump it up a little more, say closer to $800, I think you could get a lot more sub. I'm thinking of the Outlaw EX, the Hsu VTF-3 MK4, or the PSA XV15. I know it's annoying when money is tight and someone says to up your budget, but moving the budget from $700 to $800 opens you up the next level of subwoofers. That's $100 well spent IMO.

I agree 800.00 seems to be the range where you start getting into the more "serious" subs per say. When I say that I mean subs that have over 110db of output above 30hz, yet can pretty much hit 100db around 16hz 2m rms.

 

[Farley1]


Yup. I just got my first real sub and $800 was the magic number. It seems that spending $500 takes you up big step from the budget stuff in the $200-$350 range...and then about $800 (things like XV15, PB-2000, and others) takes you up another step. I didn't really want to spend $800 to get my first 'real sub', but it was just too obvious to ignore.

 

Check SVS for outlet specials. I got my PB-2000 for $729

 

[shadyJ]

The OP is in Australia, guys. He won't have access to many of these US companies subs, at least without exorbitant shipping charges and fees. In that room, you should get a bit of room gain, maybe. Since it seems that you are primarily interested in music, I would just save up for a SB2000. The SB1000 doesn't look amazing. It will give you bass, yes, but likely pretty limited. The SB2000 looks like it could be very good though.

 

[emueyes]

Thanks for the feedback, I know it's more complicated for me now - things were quite cut and dried - but I'm very glad to have the information. $700 isn't a hard limit, but here in Australia we get a bit of a rough trade in imports. An SB-2000 or PB-2000 are each $999. An SVS PB12-NSD is $900. There are two resellers for SVS speakers in Australia, and woofers aren't things I'd buy off eBay for import. The other speakers mentioned here I will find resellers for here, I hope, but I have a feeling that $800 subs may not exist here.


So, does that make the PB12-NSD attractive for the money relative to the other SVS speakers? If there's a cheaper place to get these from I'd be happy, but those are the prices, exactly the same between the two resellers.


BTW issues such as size/appearance are of no concern, as long as the size doesn't fit well with the size of the room acoustically. I think I described my usage a little inaccurately, too. While music will always be the thing I judge an amp, or speakers on, in reality almost all of my use of this system is movie viewing, and I certainly appreciate the deep rumbles and visceral feeling. When I measure out what an 18" high speaker will look like in the lounge,though, it's pretty imposing.


I really appreciate the responses, I'm much happier doing something right and being happy with it.



EDIT: I was writing this as shadyJ posted. Yep, the import problems are real. BTW too, what is 'room gain' ?

 

[bear123]


Due to the limited easy availability in Australia for most of the common ID brands, the SVS PB2000 would be my suggestion for you given your most recent post, the size of your room, and intended use.  For a few hundred bucks, the performance level will be worth it as far as the right product to enjoy long term.

 

[emueyes]

I have tried to find the speakers mentioned, the Outlaw EX, the Hsu VTF-3 MK4, or the PSA XV15, and even the manufacturer is unknown. This can be very frustrating at times. The PB-2000 jumps by $200, from the magic $US800 to a clean $AUS1,000. I'll take your advice and save up another $300, and buy the PB-2000, and no doubt will be happy once it's there and I play my first movie. It's not as if SVS products are the only ones to go through this price change.


Like I said, this's the first time I've ever built an audio system by design, I've always had amps and speakers that were traded around, so I want it to be something memorable.


Thanks for all the input, I now have a better idea of what I'm doing and what to expect, and look forward to something I can really enjoy.

 

[bear123]


Good luck!  I demo'd a PB200 in my home for 45 days, and can say that it was a very good subwoofer for the price.  I feel confident that you will be extremely satisfied with it! Keep us posted.

 

[oneeyeblind]



Quote:
Originally Posted by emueyes  /t/1523044/choosing-new-sub-have-read-as-much-as-i-can-find-seeking-opinion#post_24496867


Thanks for the feedback, I know it's more complicated for me now - things were quite cut and dried - but I'm very glad to have the information. $700 isn't a hard limit, but here in Australia we get a bit of a rough trade in imports. An SB-2000 or PB-2000 are each $999. An SVS PB12-NSD is $900. There are two resellers for SVS speakers in Australia, and woofers aren't things I'd buy off eBay for import. The other speakers mentioned here I will find resellers for here, I hope, but I have a feeling that $800 subs may not exist here.


So, does that make the PB12-NSD attractive for the money relative to the other SVS speakers? If there's a cheaper place to get these from I'd be happy, but those are the prices, exactly the same between the two resellers.


BTW issues such as size/appearance are of no concern, as long as the size doesn't fit well with the size of the room acoustically. I think I described my usage a little inaccurately, too. While music will always be the thing I judge an amp, or speakers on, in reality almost all of my use of this system is movie viewing, and I certainly appreciate the deep rumbles and visceral feeling. When I measure out what an 18" high speaker will look like in the lounge,though, it's pretty imposing.


I really appreciate the responses, I'm much happier doing something right and being happy with it.



EDIT: I was writing this as shadyJ posted. Yep, the import problems are real. BTW too, what is 'room gain' ?

If you haven't already check out Deep HZ they import to Australia and carry several sub lines your considering. Plus you would get local (in country support).

http://www.deephzaudio.com/


As of this posting they carry, SVS, and PSA subs.


Price lists

http://www.deephzaudio.com/power%20sound%20pricing%20page.html

http://www.deephzaudio.com/power%20sound%20pricing%20page.html

 

[emueyes]

Thanks, I hadn't heard of them before. Unfortunately the same price on the PB-2000, a clean $1,000.


I did notice that one of the alternatives mentioned, the PVA XV15 costs $1425 ! There really is an injustice in the way imported "luxury goods" are priced here. DeepHz include the shipping cost in their list price, and is still the same as other suppliers; that'd work out cheaper for some parts of Australia but not for me unfortunately.


They have a bunch of reviews too, some on the PB-1000 which seem really favourable and like those which led me to SVS in the first place. I don't like second guessing myself, having made up my mind to go for the extra performance of the PB-2000, and set myself up to finance it (that is, put my money in a bank and don't spend it all).


I've put up a layout of my listening room, listing my other equipment, and been fairly thorough, and the recommendation by people looking at that info and knowing the products involved has been the PB-2000, so I'll stay with that.

 

[shadyJ]

You know, you would save a lot of money by going DIY. The value proposition of DIY might be a lot better there than it is here, and here it is tremendous with respect to complete subs, even these ID brands can not touch DIY. I did a little snooping and found a few places that sell drivers. The Loud Speaker kit sells Dayton and TC Sounds Drivers, they are more expensive than in the US, but still a good deal compared to buying a complete sub over there. The price on the Dayton Ultimax 15 looks particularly good for Australia. I found a place that sells the CSS SDX15 , which you can't get anywhere in the US that I know of, and that Aussie distributor still has two in stock! That would make for a killer sub. I also found a place that sells the Peerless XXLS , which is a solid choice for a driver, and what's more it doesn't cost more there than it does here in the US. You could save up and buy a SVS sub, but for $1k AUS, I think you could build one that would knockout even the SVS PB13 Ultra. Look around the DIY forum for ideas, constructing a sub may not be as difficult as you think.

 

[emueyes]

Hmm, I posted a message in reply and it seems to have been gobbled by the forum software. I hadn't thought of the DIY approach, it's a great idea and suits my ethos. It'll require lots more research - I think a ported design, especially, is more than a driver in a box, and the sound would reflect that. If the kits had pre cut panels and premade holes it'd be a breeze to put together, and I'm not one to overvalue appearances, a can of black spray paint is fine. I haven't heard of any of those drivers, but it's good to have some names. The Loudspeaker Kit used to get extremely good reviews on their products. so I'll have a look for more recent reviews.


This's very difficult. I have no doubt that reading reviews on the DIY boxes will generally be favourable, as they were years ago when The Loudspeaker Kit reached their zenith (there were some internal trouble after that, my brother was very lucky to get his money back on goods that would never be delivered, but that's in the past and they seem to be back on track). The 37 pages of people talking about the SB-1000 and PB-1000 in another thread here seem to be generally very positive, too. There's no way I can get an audition of these, except by flying to Melbourne or Perth ( another issue, internal flights in Australia are pretty expensive, too ). Does this mean that whatever I do I'll be happy with ? Not really. The people in this thread make a lot of sense and so I'm sticking here. I could have gone and bought an SB- or PB-1000 yesterday, but I wouldn't have been happy, and every time I played a movie I would wonder futile thoughts.


I wonder though if there are issues of matching components. The Monitor Audio BX LCR cost me $900 for the three speakers, any sub is going to cost more than that. The Denon will quite capably fill up this room with sound, and it didn't seem to distort the one time I accidentally got an output that was way too high. And the MA speakers sound great, clean yet intimate. They have a surprising bass, too, considering their size. Is that a normal situation though, to have a sub cost more than all the other speakers out together ? Not that that matters I guess, as long as I'm happy with the result, and I'll soon forget how much it costs.


BTW how does the PB12-NSD rate ? It's $100 cheaper than a PB-2000 but I wouldn't buy it just to save $100. I was thinking it may have been discounted with the new range of speakers arriving.

 

[shadyJ]

The PB12 NSD is pretty good. It has outstanding deep bass performance, very low distortion, even when pushed to the limit at 20 Hz. You can see how it performs with respect to other subs here . It wouldn't touch a DIY system for the same cost though. In a well balanced system, yes, a sub should cost more than all the other speakers. It has to move a lot more air than all of the other speakers combined, so in terms of physics, it has a much more difficult task.

 

[Farley1]



Quote:
Originally Posted by emueyes  /t/1523044/choosing-new-sub-have-read-as-much-as-i-can-find-seeking-opinion#post_24501603


Hmm, I posted a message in reply and it seems to have been gobbled by the forum software. I hadn't thought of the DIY approach, it's a great idea and suits my ethos. It'll require lots more research - I think a ported design, especially, is more than a driver in a box, and the sound would reflect that. If the kits had pre cut panels and premade holes it'd be a breeze to put together, and I'm not one to overvalue appearances, a can of black spray paint is fine. I haven't heard of any of those drivers, but it's good to have some names. The Loudspeaker Kit used to get extremely good reviews on their products. so I'll have a look for more recent reviews.


This's very difficult. I have no doubt that reading reviews on the DIY boxes will generally be favourable, as they were years ago when The Loudspeaker Kit reached their zenith (there were some internal trouble after that, my brother was very lucky to get his money back on goods that would never be delivered, but that's in the past and they seem to be back on track). The 37 pages of people talking about the SB-1000 and PB-1000 in another thread here seem to be generally very positive, too. There's no way I can get an audition of these, except by flying to Melbourne or Perth ( another issue, internal flights in Australia are pretty expensive, too ). Does this mean that whatever I do I'll be happy with ? Not really. The people in this thread make a lot of sense and so I'm sticking here. I could have gone and bought an SB- or PB-1000 yesterday, but I wouldn't have been happy, and every time I played a movie I would wonder futile thoughts.


I wonder though if there are issues of matching components. The Monitor Audio BX LCR cost me $900 for the three speakers, any sub is going to cost more than that. The Denon will quite capably fill up this room with sound, and it didn't seem to distort the one time I accidentally got an output that was way too high. And the MA speakers sound great, clean yet intimate. They have a surprising bass, too, considering their size. Is that a normal situation though, to have a sub cost more than all the other speakers out together ? Not that that matters I guess, as long as I'm happy with the result, and I'll soon forget how much it costs.


BTW how does the PB12-NSD rate ? It's $100 cheaper than a PB-2000 but I wouldn't buy it just to save $100. I was thinking it may have been discounted with the new range of speakers arriving.

I won't pretend as though my setup is normal, but my 5.0 loudspeaker configuration was $535 (Pioneer Andrew Jones lineup)...and I overpaid a tad. Then there's the PB-2000 sitting in the corner. I also have the same AVR as you, the Denon X1000.

 

And I'm a noob so maybe I just don't know what I don't know, but I have no regrets about where I chose to spend my budget.

 

[emueyes]

The Loudspeaker Kit have just one sub kit http://www.theloudspeakerkit.com/dayton-c1500k-15-powered-subwoofer-kit/


The driver in that kit is the Dayton Classic http://www.daytonaudio.com/index.php/dcs380-4-15-classic-subwoofer-4-ohm.html and apart from that is just a big braced box, at $700 it's the same price of an SB- or PB-1000 so is vastly better value there. Better than $900 for a PB12 NSD or $1000 for a PB-1000 though, hard to say, no reviews. This project is epic for me, I've never been able to keep it together long enough to get an expensive, multi component sysyem together. Well, there's the three computers I suppose. What I'm saying is that the LSKL sub probably puts up a wall of sound, but that's not really what I'm after, and I don't have the luxury of two subs. I notice different people suggested diferent ideas when I mentioned movies, and the recommendation went from an SB-2000 to a PB-2000, based I guess, on movie watching. I really wish there were somewhere I could audition these.So I'm still set with the PB2000 or PB12NSD. Unfortunately, either will be 4 weeks away before I can make a purchase.



Nothing to do with subs, but The Loudspeaker Kit still have their M4, a bookshelf box they became quite well known for, it is apparently a very good small speaker.

 

[shadyJ]

Yeah, I would skip that kit. Not a great driver. It will have more upper bass than many of the SVS subs but it will have zero deep bass. I like many of the Dayton kits, but that one is awful. In Australia, I would build my own cabinet, and get a good driver and amp. Next to that, get a PB2000. If you want a vastly better value, get this driver and this amp , those are Aussie stores. That will come in at $775 (but I dunno about Aussie sales tax). Take another hundred, get some MDF, some feet, some terminals, and some stuffing. Follow one of the many construction plans from the DIY area. That will be a vastly better value. Depending on the cabinet design, I think it could outperform a PB12 Plus and maybe match a PB13.

 

[bear123]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Farley1  /t/1523044/choosing-new-sub-have-read-as-much-as-i-can-find-seeking-opinion#post_24502547

 

I won't pretend as though my setup is normal, but my 5.0 loudspeaker configuration was $535 (Pioneer Andrew Jones lineup)...and I overpaid a tad. Then there's the PB-2000 sitting in the corner. I also have the same AVR as you, the Denon X1000.

 

And I'm a noob so maybe I just don't know what I don't know, but I have no regrets about where I chose to spend my budget.

Sounds like a GREAT bang for the buck system.  Bet it would be hard to beat for the money spent.