AVS Forum banner

1001 - 1020 of 1275 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
95 Posts
I paid close attention to this - this is inaccurate. Both German folks reviewed the Base Gryffin with the high contrast lens measuring from 10k:1 to 11k:1 contrast and their impressions comparing it to the 380 were based on that lens, they were explicit about it.

So I don't understand what Gryffin HC is as a product compared to the base Gryffin with the HC lens those 2 gentlemen have used and I would like to learn.
Arrow told that the changes between the Griffin HC and the old Griffin is internal and many of the changes are classified. The difference is not due to a different lens. The price of the HC (excluding lens) is 20k to 30k more than older Griffin.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,408 Posts
Okay this is where it starts to sound a bit weird to me as absolutely every reviewer so far (Ekki, the German youtube dude, the Italian youtube dude, my calibrator, DieZwi etc) have all pointed out that it clearly is much more superior to the 5000 and in very tangible ways, far from just measurements. "A different ballgame" to be exact. The measurements all confirm it, but that's icing on the cake.

So something doesn't add up here and I think I'll have to wait for more impressions from people that have seen a well calibrated 380, at least when it comes to being able to compare it to the 5000 and other Sony projectors.

The sharpness of the image and the lens is another peculiar point to add to many here. We can only assume that you've seen the best calibrated version of the 380 for this shootout but there's just too many things that don't quite add up to me personally.

I hope I'll get to see it in person eventually and that the mist will clear with more independent reviews coming in.
To be clear, I fully expect the Gryffin to be better, however the way the 380 is described relative to other projectors and the performance delta we know, it just feels questionable making this shootout a bit inconclusive to me personally when it comes to knowing how much of an upgrade this would be for me (if at all).
You appear to be questioning my viewing experience and @ARROW-AV s calibration. :unsure:
The 380 is great, but it is not 78% better than an 870 or 28% better than a 5000. Although the latter is much closer to the 15 - 20% I would tentitively put the improvement at over a 5000. Thing is if it is only 15% better then the 5000 then it is only that much better than an 870 too, as the same tech and flaws are present in all Sony 4K projectors.
You seem to be just waiting for the review that tells you what you want to hear. A bit like someone who demands another referendum because he doesn't agree with the result of the one that just took place.
I saw them both together the Christie flat out wins, but the 380 is a solid and fine projector.
Personally the most I would pay for it after seeing it with my own eyes is 35k tops. For that amount it would be peerless. As it stands, it simply offers nothing new over other models in the range except more brightness and 11% more colour.
As I said, I do wish I had been able to play with all the contrast enhancements tools etc, but as I have been constantly told, apparently no one will use it that way, and you likely will use an external VP too, so it would be a waste of time for me to do that as far as the current discussion goes anyway.
Sony quality is excellent, there is simply most of that same quality available lower down the range for a lot less money.
Don't know what else to say. I have no agenda and come at it as a long time, and current, Sony laser projector owner.
Please either wait until you can see for yourself, or just take your 380 out of its box and enjoy it. It is a great machine. :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,408 Posts
Arrow told that the changes between the Griffin HC and the old Griffin is internal and many of the changes are classified. The difference is not due to a different lens. The price of the HC (excluding lens) is 20k to 30k more than older Griffin.
And what a lens it is. I would be happy to just own the lens and put it on my mantle. It is a doozy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Reddig

·
Registered
Joined
·
304 Posts
You appear to be questioning my viewing experience and @ARROW-AV s calibration. :unsure:
Neither, I'm just leaning to be more carefully agnostic here. This was your subjective impression based on the shootout you've experienced and the specific calibration.
What spooked me a bit is the description of the 380 relative to the 5000 and other projectors knowing what I know and have heard.

You have stated that "the improvements in the 380 did not manifest in a visible improvement of what you've seen on screen compared to the 5000".
Maybe it is what it is and you're right, but a few things to me just do not add up. I want to hear from more folks that have no horse in any of these races to form a well grounded opinion. I'm not saying you have a horse in this race, but certainly the shootout you've participated in has one, a horse with birds head and wings! :)


As I said, I do wish I had been able to play with all the contrast enhancements tools etc, but as I have been constantly told, apparently no one will use it that way, and you likely will use an external VP too, so it would be a waste of time for me to do that as far as the current discussion goes anyway.
Are you referring to the internal contrast enhancer that is compensating for the internal optics glare? Was it off during this test?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,408 Posts
Hey @Archibald1, I really enjoyed the excellent write-up on your demo experience. (y) Good stuff pal.

That sounded (looked? lol) like a really fun and enlightening experience for you and your wife.
Thank you. I enjoyed writing it. :)
Yes, I went into it with a completely open mind. I really wanted the 380 to blow my mind and confirm to me that Sony are actually truly developing their tech in the background and not sitting on their hands/laurels and which tech would then of course, hopefully trickle down to my level soon enough ready for upgrade time.
Alas, it really did look merely like a bigger brighter Sony projector with 11% better colour. It really was just like that. I don't how else to describe it.
They were both using Mad VR and that is of course supposed to be 'the best' at what it does too, so I am not sure how the visuals could be improved anyway.

I do regret not having time to really play with the onboard enhancement controls etc, but whether they would improve anything over the mad VR Envy extreme is debatable anyway and would doubtless spark yet another debate saying things like you didn't see it right or other such nonsense..... :rolleyes:;):)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Reddig

·
Registered
Joined
·
304 Posts
I do regret not having time to really play with the onboard enhancement controls etc, but whether they would improve anything over the mad VR Envy extreme is debatable anyway and would doubtless spark yet another debate saying things like you didn't see it right or other such nonsense..... :rolleyes:;):)
Not for the glare compensation - this is something MadVR cannot do by definition becuase it can't measure the internal situation of the optical unit to correct for it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,408 Posts
Are you referring to the internal contrast enhancer that is compensating for the int


Neither, I'm just leaning to be more carefully agnostic here. This was your subjective impression based on the shootout you've experienced and the specific calibration.
What spooked me a bit is the description of the 380 relative to the 5000 and other projectors knowing what I know and have heard.

You have stated that "the improvements in the 380 did not manifest in a visible improvement of what you've seen on screen compared to the 5000".
Maybe it is what it is and you're right, but a few things to me just do not add up. I want to hear from more folks that have no horse in any of these races to form a well grounded opinion.




Are you referring to the internal contrast enhancer that is compensating for the internal optics glare? Was it off during this test?
You said, 'sounds a bit weird' and 'doesn't add up' so that sounds pretty questioning to me.

Well you have got one opinion from someone with no horse in the race already. Moi.

I mean all of that stuff, yes. And yes the digital contrast optimiser (or the 'a.n.other' throw some processing at it, feature) was off as it had proved itself to do nothing visually tremendously significant. But moreover, it wasn't on, as the Gryffin had no such equivalent feature and it had to be apples to apples. Don't forget that in the majority of scenes the 380 and the HC looked visually pretty close contrast wise anyway. And the 380 had the better black floor.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,408 Posts
Not for the glare compensation - this is something MadVR cannot do by definition becuase it can't measure the internal situation of the optical unit to correct for it.
Indeed, but as I said, no such feature is on the HC and so apples to apples meant it was off on the 380.
As I keep saying I would have loved to see what switching every single enhancement control on, would have done to the viewing experience. I suspect it would done something noticable to improve the perceived image, but this was comparison of the basic tech and quality so needed to have the same baseline processing.
Either way there is still no excuse for the Sony to still have these uniformity issues and stupid processing anomalies that wouldn't be needed if they sorted the hardware to be more uniform and inherently refined.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,408 Posts
I'm turning in as it is the wee hours here now and I am shattered. Laterz all. 😴
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,739 Posts
@ARROW-AV

What I find pretty chucklesome is that purely looking at the native on/off contrast of the HC, many here (of a certain 'allegiance' shall we say) would dismiss it as simply not worth bothering with.
And yet, when you actually sit and watch content on it, it just blows your socks clean off!

But not the one on my stealthy secret weapon thankfully! ;):LOL:
Definitely shows the value of seeing the projectors for oneself vs just reading data. I can’t wait to see the Griffyn at CEDIA and hopefully the 380 too.
 

·
Registered
Erskine designed Procella, Christie D4k2560 + Starglass RP, 42' X 25'
Joined
·
12 Posts
Hi All, I have a D4K2560 120Hz HC + Starglass RP system that I've been super happy with for the last 8 years, but am curious about potentially upgrading to the Gryffin or other higher-contrast, better-black-level system. Anyone here have experience with or opinion on whether the Gryffin HC would make for a meaningful upgrade in image quality? What I'd most like to improve is black level and contrast in low IRE scenes. I'm basically thrilled with image quality in segments that have any high brightness components, but where the current system falls down is on overall low output scenes with no bright elements such as much of Dark City or U571.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
21,598 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,739 Posts
Thank you. I enjoyed writing it. :)
Yes, I went into it with a completely open mind. I really wanted the 380 to blow my mind and confirm to me that Sony are actually truly developing their tech in the background and not sitting on their hands/laurels and which tech would then of course, hopefully trickle down to my level soon enough ready for upgrade time.
Alas, it really did look merely like a bigger brighter Sony projector with 11% better colour. It really was just like that. I don't how else to describe it.
They were both using Mad VR and that is of course supposed to be 'the best' at what it does too, so I am not sure how the visuals could be improved anyway.

I do regret not having time to really play with the onboard enhancement controls etc, but whether they would improve anything over the mad VR Envy extreme is debatable anyway and would doubtless spark yet another debate saying things like you didn't see it right or other such nonsense..... :rolleyes:;):)
You bet. I thought you did a great job describing and narrating your experience from a neutral standpoint of curiosity and to gain knowledge. Not to mention a day with Nigel must of been lovely! :) I had a similar experience a few years back when I demoed a bunch of projectors all over the country, only to find out that ultimately, the improvement in some areas of performance was lateral or worse just to gain HDR brightness, and better optics etc. I wanted to be blown away. I felt the performance gained wasn't worth that big of an investment, so I bought a new truck instead and decided to wait a few years and let the technology grow. I plan to re-evaluate at CEDIA and possibly before if COVID allows at some dealers.

Once again thanks pal.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
304 Posts
Indeed, but as I said, no such feature is on the HC and so apples to apples meant it was off on the 380.
As I keep saying I would have loved to see what switching every single enhancement control on, would have done to the viewing experience. I suspect it would done something noticable to improve the perceived image, but this was comparison of the basic tech and quality so needed to have the same baseline processing.
Either way there is still no excuse for the Sony to still have these uniformity issues and stupid processing anomalies that wouldn't be needed if they sorted the hardware to be more uniform and inherently refined.

I don't know if it'd be considered apples to apples in this case. It's a little bit like comparing 2 super cars. One has a track mode but the other doesn't. Then if both cars are being taken for a spin would the other car get the track mode off to have "apples to apples" comparison? In reality each car should be driven the way it would be experienced by the end user. It is important to normalize for things like brightness, gamma, saturation etc but when we start disabling internal processing this is where it gets too dicey for my taste.

Sure it maybe has some academic value in terms of "pure hardware capability" but that processing is there for a reason and that's how most people will experience the end product, so doing a shootout without that is a questionable methodology. I would like to know what other features were disabled in the Sony in the shootout, if possible.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
304 Posts
Well you have got one opinion from someone with no horse in the race already. Moi.
No doubt about that, however the shootout itself has a horse in the race, is all :) I think we all understand that the Gryffin is the better projector in most aspects (except of black floor and a few other things like dynamic laser dimming, etc). What I'm now trying to gage, while finding it very difficult to do so, is how much better it is and whether or not it warrants considering an upgrade.

The other thing that was quite interesting is the interstellar scene and the laser dimming point, that disabling the laser dimming makes that scene better.
Unless the nits on those stars in the source are low, I don't see how this would be the case, if the tonemapping is setup correctly. This feels like something that is easily fixeable by the MadVR on PC where you can play with the right settings.

Then for me personally there's still the fact that DLP with its low fill-rate and screen-door while looking sharper on test images doesn't have the same organic and filmic look as the SXRD panels.
IMO that is a significant advantage in terms of perceivable image. I have a spectacular monitor and an OLED for work and I'm seeing enough of the "flat panel" soapy digital look all day. When I want to see movies I want it to have a different aesthetic and I still find it more pleasing. I guess I'll need to see the Gryffin have addressed that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
593 Posts
Hi All, I have a D4K2560 120Hz HC + Starglass RP system that I've been super happy with for the last 8 years, but am curious about potentially upgrading to the Gryffin or other higher-contrast, better-black-level system. Anyone here have experience with or opinion on whether the Gryffin HC would make for a meaningful upgrade in image quality? What I'd most like to improve is black level and contrast in low IRE scenes. I'm basically thrilled with image quality in segments that have any high brightness components, but where the current system falls down is on overall low output scenes with no bright elements such as much of Dark City or U571.
First of all thank you Archie and Arrow for your review and meausrements.

That would depend on the lens and the light path used in your rear projection rig, there may not be an advanced HC lens option if you use a .7, .8 or 1.0 lens in your rig. You could however re-engineer your RP setup with mirrors or room modifications to ensure the use of one of the new advanced HC lens options to get the deeper blacks. As to other exponential image improvements, no contest.

Speaking of lenses, I need to demystify a proven misconception that Archie is making a big fuzz about but in reality, it is not the case, these are cinema-grade lenses, those have been around since 2007.

The unreal pixel defining corner to corner focus uniformity and sharpness that you are seeing is not because of a better lens, sure the HC lens will improve MTF but from the overall sharpness and perfect focus uniformity aspects, the actual lens holder design, and the dmd optics are 80% responsible for the amazing unreal sharpness that the Gryffin displayed. The advanced scheimpflug and other lens holder improvements and superior 3P dmd light engine optics (yes better than 6P - sorry Thor owners but the 3p laser light engines are way sharper and better controlled) are the ones responsible for the amazing clarity that the last generation of 3P lasers display if you were to take a Gryffin and fitted an old compatible cinema lens you would still get that amazing pixel focus corner to corner. Ooohs and ahhs galore, just not the contrast which also helps the appearance of sharpness further through the contrast headroom that enhances the MTF definition appearance.

So give a lot more credit to the amazing improvements that only 3P laser cinema based projectors with their improved lens holders and precision controlled dmd focus optics bring to the table when discussing image sharpness and uniformity, yet another major advantage of the Griffin, Eclipse, and other 3P cinema based laser projectors have over other pj's using outdated before-the-lense legacy image optics and supporting mechanics, perhaps that is an issue still lagging on the 380, that and lcos. :)

So that is a huge advantage that these types of 3P laser projectors have if you want the best-projected image solutions.

It would have been interesting to see a true rec 2020 title like the Coral Scene in Planet Earth II at Nigel's comparative setup, I would expect utter colorimetry superiority with that scene, where you would truly appreciate the advantages of rec 2020 with images of nature.

Interesting reading keep on guys...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
881 Posts
I am looking into making a projection room if I were to buy the HC. Where would I find the best type of glass, so there is no degradation from the glass itself

I found one place, but I wanted to know what peeps here are using or what company to look at?

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
593 Posts
Then for me personally there's still the fact that DLP with its low fill-rate and screen-door while looking sharper on test images doesn't have the same organic and filmic look as the SXRD panels.
That SXRD Film Look argument went out the window when the 3P cinema-based units rolled out, especially on the 8k mastered My Fair Lady, indistinguishable from true 70mm. It does not come any more film-like than that. Don't open the box yet.
 
1001 - 1020 of 1275 Posts
Top