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I am looking into making a projection room if I were to buy the HC. Where would I find the best type of glass, so there is no degradation from the glass itself

I found one place, but I wanted to know what peeps here are using or what company to look at?

Kelmar, and they do custom. The thinner the glass the better. Ask Thomas about the front removable sleeve-based unit. Dead quiet.
 

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No doubt about that, however the shootout itself has a horse in the race, is all :) I think we all understand that the Gryffin is the better projector in most aspects (except of black floor and a few other things like dynamic laser dimming, etc). What I'm now trying to gage, while finding it very difficult to do so, is how much better it is and whether or not it warrants considering an upgrade.

The other thing that was quite interesting is the interstellar scene and the laser dimming point, that disabling the laser dimming makes that scene better.
Unless the nits on those stars in the source are low, I don't see how this would be the case, if the tonemapping is setup correctly. This feels like something that is easily fixeable by the MadVR on PC where you can play with the right settings.

Then for me personally there's still the fact that DLP with its low fill-rate and screen-door while looking sharper on test images doesn't have the same organic and filmic look as the SXRD panels.
IMO that is a significant advantage in terms of perceivable image. I have a spectacular monitor and an OLED for work and I'm seeing enough of the "flat panel" soapy digital look all day. When I want to see movies I want it to have a different aesthetic and I still find it more pleasing. I guess I'll need to see the Gryffin have addressed that.
The GTZ has a better black floor only below ADL 2% or all the way to 50%?
 

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No doubt about that, however the shootout itself has a horse in the race, is all :) I think we all understand that the Gryffin is the better projector in most aspects (except of black floor and a few other things like dynamic laser dimming, etc). What I'm now trying to gage, while finding it very difficult to do so, is how much better it is and whether or not it warrants considering an upgrade.

The other thing that was quite interesting is the interstellar scene and the laser dimming point, that disabling the laser dimming makes that scene better.
Unless the nits on those stars in the source are low, I don't see how this would be the case, if the tonemapping is setup correctly. This feels like something that is easily fixeable by the MadVR on PC where you can play with the right settings.

Then for me personally there's still the fact that DLP with its low fill-rate and screen-door while looking sharper on test images doesn't have the same organic and filmic look as the SXRD panels.
IMO that is a significant advantage in terms of perceivable image. I have a spectacular monitor and an OLED for work and I'm seeing enough of the "flat panel" soapy digital look all day. When I want to see movies I want it to have a different aesthetic and I still find it more pleasing. I guess I'll need to see the Gryffin have addressed that.
Sort of funny any discussion about who is biased? You bought and had delivered the Sony 380 - now if that doesn't preconceive someone making it hard to convince them to spend a lot more $$ and get something different then I don't know what does! And you like what you call the "film" look of SXRD. All this is fine! Its your money and your satisfaction. I personally think you should quit this super long discourse justifying why you should keep and open up the Sony 380 and enjoy it. Its a great projector. Different folks may interpret its pluses and minuses differently, no different that the crazy audiophile hobby some of us are into as well, and vinyl vs digital! I guarentee if I had already bought the Sony 380 I might well be saying the same or similar stuff! HA! AS for your losing $$$, assuming you got a real good price, you'll find someone to pay you close if not what you paid who doesn't understand Sony sells for a good amount under msrp if you know the right Sony dealer.
 

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@ViciousDelicious
I think you´re at a point where you just need to look at both projectors yourself.
Other´s opinions and reviews are great as a preparation for it, but after all, you need to look yourself.
I´m just wondering why you ordered the Sony without ever seeing it in action - IMHO that doesn´t really fit to the impression i get from you. You try to analyze as much aspects of the both projectors as much as possible but ordered a 90KEU projector without even knowing all of it´s specs?
To be honest, that sounds a bit weird to me.

Regarding the VW5000ES vs. GTZ-380 comparison, my opinion still stands that i think that the latter just blows away the 5000. The difference is significant IMHO. I´ve got the 5000 for about a year now in my setup and switching back and forth between the both of them shows the difference very clearly.
I had a VW790 in addition to the 5000 for a customer comparison setup. To my surprise, we really had to look from time to time which projector was currently running. After blocking and relasing the other´s lens, it always became clear, but the difference was not significant.
So the customer ended up keeping his VW790.
But the difference between the 5000 and the 380 is really a big.
@Archibald1, you think both the Sonys are overprized and i tend to agree with you. But that doesn´t change the overall performance of the Sony. That´s just a subjective assessment so to say. Gear outside the standard consumer area tend to be exceptionally (and sometimes rediculously) expensive. It is as it is. If it´s worth the extra money one can only make up with himself.
That´s not questioning your experience at Nigel´s house, it´s just drawing different conclusions out of it.
 

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You said, 'sounds a bit weird' and 'doesn't add up' so that sounds pretty questioning to me.

Well you have got one opinion from someone with no horse in the race already. Moi.

I mean all of that stuff, yes. And yes the digital contrast optimiser (or the 'a.n.other' throw some processing at it, feature) was off as it had proved itself to do nothing visually tremendously significant. But moreover, it wasn't on, as the Gryffin had no such equivalent feature and it had to be apples to apples. Don't forget that in the majority of scenes the 380 and the HC looked visually pretty close contrast wise anyway. And the 380 had the better black floor.
Interesting - "380 had the better black floor" - but still Griffyn HC comes out ahead due to other variables.......
 

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After reading the review for me it is interesting to compare the contrast measurements of the Griffyn HC (native 4K DLP Chip) with the "old" FHD DLP Chip (0.95") used in the SIM2 HDR DUO Plus.
Giving the fact that it is lamp versus RGB Laser I would say not bad for the "old" one.
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Nigel I really hope you get the chance to review and measure the iLEP-X as well.
Not everyone craving for a 3-Chip RGB DLP can afford or has the space to install a "beast" like the Griffyn HC, regardless how good it performs.
 

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The GTZ has a better black floor only below ADL 2% or all the way to 50%?
Based on Arrow's measurements the GTZ's black floor is only better at below ADL 0.4%. Add some stars to the black space and the advantage is gone! This explains the black level similarity in the Interstellar scene too.
 

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Not for the glare compensation - this is something MadVR cannot do by definition becuase it can't measure the internal situation of the optical unit to correct for it.
I am curious as to how any system can truly measure and compensate for internal-to-the-lens reflections in any case. Anyone have any information or data on such a system that I can digest please?
 

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@ViciousDelicious
I think you´re at a point where you just need to look at both projectors yourself.
Other´s opinions and reviews are great as a preparation for it, but after all, you need to look yourself.
I´m just wondering why you ordered the Sony without ever seeing it in action - IMHO that doesn´t really fit to the impression i get from you. You try to analyze as much aspects of the both projectors as much as possible but ordered a 90KEU projector without even knowing all of it´s specs?
To be honest, that sounds a bit weird to me.

Regarding the VW5000ES vs. GTZ-380 comparison, my opinion still stands that i think that the latter just blows away the 5000. The difference is significant IMHO. I´ve got the 5000 for about a year now in my setup and switching back and forth between the both of them shows the difference very clearly.
I had a VW790 in addition to the 5000 for a customer comparison setup. To my surprise, we really had to look from time to time which projector was currently running. After blocking and relasing the other´s lens, it always became clear, but the difference was not significant.
So the customer ended up keeping his VW790.
But the difference between the 5000 and the 380 is really a big.
@Archibald1, you think both the Sonys are overprized and i tend to agree with you. But that doesn´t change the overall performance of the Sony. That´s just a subjective assessment so to say. Gear outside the standard consumer area tend to be exceptionally (and sometimes rediculously) expensive. It is as it is. If it´s worth the extra money one can only make up with himself.
That´s not questioning your experience at Nigel´s house, it´s just drawing different conclusions out of it.
I don't disagree with anything you say there, except that it blows away the 5000. In reality, it doesn't add anything over the 5000 except 5000 extra lumens and 100% P3 with no light loss.
I will hasten to add I am running a MUCH smaller screen than any of these will be used on (without retina burn anyway;)). I have at least 150nits on my screen and it really does look like what I saw with the 380 on that 4m wide screen.
Anyway, my point that the underlying tech is the same and the deficiencies and anomalies haven't been addressed stands. For what you get over lower Sony models the price differential is absurd.
Not going to bother saying it again as we have done this to death now:giggle: and absolutely people spending this much really do owe it to themselves to view them and make sure they are happy paying the price for what they are seeinb, before parting with any money.
 

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Interesting - "380 had the better black floor" - but still Griffyn HC comes out ahead due to other variables.......
Indeed. Check out @ARROW-AV s contrast graph to see why!
 

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I don't know if it'd be considered apples to apples in this case. It's a little bit like comparing 2 super cars. One has a track mode but the other doesn't. Then if both cars are being taken for a spin would the other car get the track mode off to have "apples to apples" comparison? In reality each car should be driven the way it would be experienced by the end user. It is important to normalize for things like brightness, gamma, saturation etc but when we start disabling internal processing this is where it gets too dicey for my taste.

Sure it maybe has some academic value in terms of "pure hardware capability" but that processing is there for a reason and that's how most people will experience the end product, so doing a shootout without that is a questionable methodology. I would like to know what other features were disabled in the Sony in the shootout, if possible.
You need to speak to @ARROW-AV about the apples to apples thing. He said the test was indeed that way and I am in no position to argue about or question it. Hopefully he will chime in and back me up here. I am but a messenger of what I saw and speak exactly like I saw it. Nothing else.
I don't agree that it is questionable methodology to have a common base (Madvr) to test the basic picture quality with. After all that is kind of how real science is done. Using every trick on one and not the other may well bring a different result but it it is not a level repeatable base that takes away any 'conjuring' if you will in either machine to boost things that should just be great as part of the basic display tech, especially for this cost.
I do however, agree about all the internal processing needs to be brought to bear to find it what the device's ultimate viewing experience will be like, always have. But I get shot down every time being told no-one will use it that way so what is the point. Well I think there is every point, as all the tech on it is designed to maximise ones experience with it.
The only thing about testing these with every one of their bells and whistles turned on is that you would have to be there to see the results as the measurements would have no common base between the units.
As that is the way they are intended to be used (by the manufacturers anyway) then it should also be looked at in my opinion.
However, side by side and viewed in person is the only way you would ever truly see what difference switching everything on makes, as measurements would be largely redundant. These are meant to watch movies on, so if switching all the gubbins on improves the image you see with your eyes, why not use it.
 

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No doubt about that, however the shootout itself has a horse in the race, is all :) I think we all understand that the Gryffin is the better projector in most aspects (except of black floor and a few other things like dynamic laser dimming, etc). What I'm now trying to gage, while finding it very difficult to do so, is how much better it is and whether or not it warrants considering an upgrade.

The other thing that was quite interesting is the interstellar scene and the laser dimming point, that disabling the laser dimming makes that scene better.
Unless the nits on those stars in the source are low, I don't see how this would be the case, if the tonemapping is setup correctly. This feels like something that is easily fixeable by the MadVR on PC where you can play with the right settings.

Then for me personally there's still the fact that DLP with its low fill-rate and screen-door while looking sharper on test images doesn't have the same organic and filmic look as the SXRD panels.
IMO that is a significant advantage in terms of perceivable image. I have a spectacular monitor and an OLED for work and I'm seeing enough of the "flat panel" soapy digital look all day. When I want to see movies I want it to have a different aesthetic and I still find it more pleasing. I guess I'll need to see the Gryffin have addressed that.
Switching the dimming off in the Interstellar scene made the 380 revert to native contrast, the dimming did dim the stars too much. The reason for that is not something I can say or want to get into, but the difference was plain as the nose on your face.
Absolutely disagree about the fill rate and screen door on DLP *. With my nose to the screen, the native 4k puxels looked exactly the way a TV would. Very small but easily distinct pixels. The fill rate was high without a doubt. The content we watched had the same look on both. Very filmic both. Honestly nothing between them on that front.

Edited to add:
* Typical pixel fill rate figures from a Sony document:
LCD: 50%
DLP: 91%
SXRD: 92%
 

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Absolutely disagree about lie full rate and screen door on DLP. With my nose to the screen, the native 4k puxels looked exactly the way a TV would. Very small but easily distinct pixels. The fill rate was high without a doubt. The content we watched had the same look on both. Very filmic both. Honestly nothing between them on that front.
Agree. Needs to be seen in reality, not in theory.
 

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I don't disagree with anything you say there, except that it blows away the 5000. In reality, it doesn't add anything over the 5000 except 5000 extra lumens and 100% P3 26th no light loss.
Which makes a huge difference on a large screen. :)
I said it before: with a small(er) screen, i wouldn´t opt for the 380 anyway. So after all, you can really say it´s all about the light.
And BTW: with the filter in place on the 5000, it´s 3.500 vs. 9.500 lumen.
 
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Which makes a huge difference on a large screen. :)
I said it before: with a small(er) screen, i wouldn´t opt for the 380 anyway. So after all, you can really say it´s all about the light.
And BTW: with the filter in place on the 5000, it´s 3.500 vs. 9.500 lumen.
Damn my phone is an arse with its word substitutions. P3 26th no light loss.... Really? I will go back and edit that now. :D

Yes, light output is a huge difference granted and I don't think I have said otherwise. If you have a BIG screen and the 5000 was bordering on dim, then it is a good option.
Provided, you are happy with all the self same underlying optical and processing fudges going on then you are golden. The red laser and extra light with no drop in colour is also something I have said is an advantage.
The extra brightness is still not a huge deal in reality though and the easiest thing to pull off all things being equal BUT it should be the same price as the 5000 at the very least. These two wouldn't be talked about in the same breath if that was it's price. And that would only benefit he 380.


My argument is simply that Sony need to move on and up, (as we all know/hope they can) not carry on repainting the same old stuff. The paint is starting to peel and flake.
How that is not a desirable direction for anyone (inside Sony or consumer wise) is beyond me. They have stagnated.

The simple thing is, that in every other way it is now shown to be behind the curve, what with upcoming players who are (it would seem) willing to give aficionados what they want.
If Christie can get the price below 100k in any way shape or form, they will clean up as things stand. Unless Sony gets more realistic with the price of course.
 
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The extra brightness is still not a huge deal in reality though
Well, it is. And if it would be technically easy to achieve, there would be more options available in the high lumen area with a contrast usable for home cinema application. But besides the GTZ-380, the Griffyn HC and the Eclipse, there´s nothing.
 

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Well, it is. And if it would be technically easy to achieve, there would be more options available in the high lumen area with a contrast usable for home cinema application. But besides the GTZ-380, the Griffyn HC and the Eclipse, there´s nothing.
I said a huge deal, not difference. Of which three times the light output clearly is a big difference. If you NEED that light it could be the clincher along with the slightly better red. But the rest of what you get, nit for nit, is really no different to any other Sony unit. The picture quality is not materially different from mine, it is just a lot bigger.
So, I have my opinion, formed in a real world situation sat in front of two great projectors viewing them with my own eyes. Something that not many have yet done in fact and my opinion isn't going to change unless something big materially changes in the 380 or they reduce its price to be commensurate with its employed technology. I saw what I saw and I cannot un-see it.

Maybe we are just talking semantics with the output etc, I don't know. It is pertinent though, but I tire of this now. Please direct these questions/queries to @ARROW-AV as he is far better placed to give you the whys and wherefores than I am, as he is actually in possession of said projectors, I am not. :)
 

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After reading the review for me it is interesting to compare the contrast measurements of the Griffyn HC (native 4K DLP Chip) with the "old" FHD DLP Chip (0.95") used in the SIM2 HDR DUO Plus.
Giving the fact that it is lamp versus RGB Laser I would say not bad for the "old" one.

Nigel I really hope you get the chance to review and measure the iLEP-X as well.
Not everyone craving for a 3-Chip RGB DLP can afford or has the space to install a "beast" like the Griffyn HC, regardless how good it performs.
I most certainly will be 😉
 

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So, I have my opinion, formed in a real world situation sat in front of two great projectors viewing them with my own eyes. Something that not many have yet done in fact and my opinion isn't going to change unless. I saw what I saw and I cannot un-see it.
As said before, i don´t question what you´ve seen. :)
But i agree - i don´t think we get any further on this point so i agree to leave it there. (y)
 

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As said before, i don´t question what you´ve seen. :)
But i agree - i don´t think we get any further on this point so i agree to leave it there. (y)
Coolio.:cool:
 
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