AVS Forum banner
1 - 20 of 279 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,249 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello AVS Forum Members,


I head up the small Independent Label that released CHRONOS. There seems to be a lot of confusion involving CHRONOS ... our first HD Release ... but not our last.


Bottom line, for those that don't like to read, the current HD-DVD Format and HD-DVD Players are not capable of anything but 1080i output. Our CHRONOS release is encoded from the 1080/24P Source, same as our BD Version, but HD-DVD only outputs 1080i. In my opinion, until the day comes when HD-DVD can read and output a native 1080/24p file...it will not be capable of true 1080/24p output.


Regarding the overall 1080i or 1080p issue, the HD-DVD specifications only support 1080i at this point in time. There are discussions about adding support for 1080p for higher performance profile players, but this has not been decided yet.


CHRONOS was encoded from the 1080/24p source. The lab then needed to add 2:3 cadence flags to comply with HD-DVD Specifications. The 2nd generation Toshiba player does support 1080p output, but it will not be 24p output. The content on the disc would still have the cadence flags, which technically makes it 1080i. However, as the specs are right now, it's left to the player whether it outputs the content as interlaced or uses the progressive frames and ignores the flags or does any other conversions.


The fact remains the same, the specifications for HD-DVD do not allow for native 24 frames per second. The cadence information has to be included in the file - so to speak as metadata. As I mentioned previously, if the player chooses to ignore these flags, this is an implementers choice. However, although converting from 1080/24p to 1080i does not require an encode, the stream is still being "processed" (by the Player) re-flowing the 2:3 cadence and removing the progressive_sequence_flags. From this perspective, it is technically not a 24p stream anymore.


In any case, the stream on CHRONOS does have the same format as most discs out there. The frames are still encoded as progressive and if a player ignores the metadata, they will be displayed as progressive.


To summarize, both the HD-DVD and Blu-ray Disc (BD) versions of CHRONOS come from the same 1080p24 Master. This master was created from the original 65mm Film Elements and transferred at Crest National under the supervision of Ron Fricke ... the original Director / Cinematographer. Everyone involved worked diligently to restore and color correct the original film elements to assure the best possible image quality.


R&B Films also hired Michael Stearns, the original Composer, do a complete remix of the CHRONOS soundtrack optimized for a smaller Home Theater environment. We remixed the film score after going back to the original 2" Reel to Reel Analog Masters and having them transferred at Todd-AO Sound Studios to 96/24 using the best ADAC's available.


I have worked as a Producer / Director for 30 years and a Record / Video Industry professional for 15 of those years. In my opinion, the amount of time and resources invested in to bringing CHRONOS to HD is far above and beyond what is typical for a special interest non-fiction film of this type.


I hope those that have yet to see this title in HD will do so, as it is a stunning example of what HD-DVD and BD is capable of from a film source.


I hope this resolves the confusion about CHRONOS on HD-DVD and BD and sheds some light on the topic of 1080i and 1080/24p in general.


Richard J. Casey

R&B Films, Ltd.


I like to think of R&B as more than a label; it's a gallery for fine art in the fields of audio and video programming. And the only reason to have a gallery, in my opinion, is to fill it with masterpieces.



Richard J. Casey, President
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,249 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
You are welcome...and thank your for your appreciation.


I would love to release Baraka in HD. I am working to secure the rights but currently, they are tied up at another label.


Rich

Quote:
Originally Posted by efranzen /forum/post/0


Thank you very much for your input Richard, and your dedication in bringing these great films to the new formats.


Do you have plans to release Baraka?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,107 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by RBFilms /forum/post/0


As I mentioned previously, if the player chooses to ignore these flags, this is an implementers choice.

Thanks for the great post.


Are you saying the implementers do have the choice to ignore the metadata and output 24p in the players? Also, is the bluray version using the same transfer as HD DVD just without the 3:2 sequence header?


Thanks again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
16,424 Posts
Thanks for stopping by Richard!


What sound options are available on the Blu-Ray version (the one I'm interested in)? Hopefully, 24 bit/96 kHz lossless! Have you considered doing 8 channel, high res. mixes?


Is CHRONOS being transferred at a modified 1.78:1 HDTV "friendly" ratio, or pillarboxed at "full frame?" With IMAX they seem to have a bit of a wacky, non-standard ratio for projection. When I've seen 1.78:1 versions on DVD they tend to have a little more information on the sides, and the 1.33:1 versions crop a bit on the sides and have more information top and bottom. It's almost like two separate transfers for a Super35 composed movie.


Dan
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,062 Posts

Quote:
Bottom line, for those that don't like to read, the current HD-DVD Format and HD-DVD Players are not capable of anything but 1080i output.

You are ignoring the HTPC market, including PowerDVD, and WinDVD. I have an HTPC and have no issues outputting 24PsF, 24P or 48I from it.


The lack of judder caused by converting to 24P to 30P or 60I is a beauty to behold.


Vern
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29,547 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Hitchman /forum/post/0


Is CHRONOS being transferred at a modified 1.78:1 HDTV "friendly" ratio, or pillarboxed at "full frame?"

The Chronos HD DVD has been reformatted for 16:9.

http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/read.php?ID=25835


I would assume that the Blu-ray will use the same master.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,935 Posts
Thanks a lot for your very informative post, Richard.


For what it's worth, I've been trying to raise awareness towards the importance of native 1080p24 in this forum for months, with this thread . As you can see, respected figures of the video scene such as cine4home's Ekkehart Schmitt or Joe Kane are insisting that 1080p24 is much more than a marketing bulleted item.


Now talking about R&B, Richard, what other titles do you have in your 2007 slate?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,107 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky /forum/post/0


I'm confused now...is this insider confirmation that the native resolution of hd-dvd format/media is indeed 1080i60?


native 1080p24 with 3:2 sequence header in the metadata.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,107 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubert /forum/post/0


Thanks a lot for your very informative post, Richard.


For what it's worth, I've been trying to raise awareness towards the importance of native 1080p24 in this forum for months

I think from an encoding perspective, metadata doesn't change the 24p nature. That's why same transfer could be used on both format. From the decoding side, the question is whether1080i60 IVTC to 24p is the same as ignoring the metadata. Is IVTC a lossless process if done right?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,234 Posts
If it really was "native 1080p24", then it does not make sense that you would need the 3:2 sequence header (EDIT: ) to output 1080p24. "1080i60 with 3:2 sequence header" would seem to be the more apt description.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,107 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Hanky /forum/post/0


If it really was "native 1080p24", then it does not make sense that you would need the 3:2 sequence header. "1080i60 with 3:2 sequence header" would seem to be the more apt description.

Native 1080p24 is exactly why you need 3:2 sequence header to tell the decoder to do 3:2 pulldown on 24p stream in order to output 1080i60. If it is 1080i60 native, you wouldn't need 3:2 pull down, wouldn't you?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,935 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by lymzy /forum/post/0


I think from an encoding perspective, metadata doesn't change the 24p nature. That's why same transfer could be used on both format. From the decoding side, the question is whether1080i60 IVTC to 24p is the same as ignoring the metadata. Is IVTC a lossless process if done right?

I've discussed this at length on post #78 of the other thread (reproducing part of an explanation and tests by cine4home). In short, even with state-of-the-art video processing, 1080i60-to-1080p24 is by no means infallible.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,107 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubert /forum/post/0


I've discussed this at length on post #78 of the other thread (reproducing part of an explanation and tests by cine4home). In short, even with state-of-the-art video processing, 1080i60-to-1080p24 is by no means infallible.


OK, IVTC "is the most challenging tasks that a scaler has to fulfill at present".
Let's hope there would be HD DVD players using the ignore route before more competent video processor become mainstream.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
18,829 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grubert /forum/post/0


I've discussed this at length on post #78 of the other thread (reproducing part of an explanation and tests by cine4home). In short, even with state-of-the-art video processing, 1080i60-to-1080p24 is by no means infallible.

Indeed. That is why the content on HD DVD is 1080p, not 1080i. So the conversion is much simpler and lossless. We use a VP-50 to drive our Marantz projector at 48Khz inside the HD DVD truck and thousands of people have seen the judder free images of HD DVD that way.


Here is the other way to think about it. If I add metadata to the stream, to output the image at 4K resolution, instead of 2K that is the resolution of the bits on the disc, would you call the original stream "4K"? Of course, not. So calling the HD DVD stream "interlaced" or "1080i" is just as incorrect, simply because there is metadata to tell the player how to correctly output the stream in case the output is 1080i. What is important is the same 1920x1080 image is encoded in progressive mode in both formats and stored that way.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
950 Posts
In the same general vein... what are the chances of Koyannisqatsi coming out on HD disc? I would love to see it in the same 2:35-1 AR as Baraka. I remember seeing it for the first time in a theater with a 70mm print and being totally blown away. I have a D-VHS version off of INHD which is kind of soft and is 1:85-1.
 
1 - 20 of 279 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top