[HIMS]

In calibrating my panasonic 65s1 with my eye one lt I can't seem to wrap my head around the color. On one hand if I turn down the saturation to about 25 my primaries look more accurate on the cie chart but my dE's are higher. If I calibrate red to 21% of Y (100% grey) my dE's are all 25 or less (still not great), but the saturation looks too rich and it puts me at 36 on my color. Is there something I am missing? There is no CMS on this tv, but I am asking which one is more accurate, the lower saturation with the closer primaries or the correct luminance? I've attached a pic of my cie chart. The wider grey triangle is the correct luminance color at 36, the smaller triangle is the color at 25. Any input would be appreciated.

 

[PlasmaPZ80U]

Forget about dE's for the moment. Measure your primaries at the default color setting and then input the data into this spreadsheet .


Simply copy and paste the xyY data from ColorHCFR into the "color corrector" tab of the spreadsheet where it says to paste to and then aim to minimize the "difference in Y from target." To do this you want to aim for the target red Y value in the "new targets" area. When you have the red Y value as close to the target as you can get it, you must remeasure your primaries and use the spreadsheet again to confirm the xy of your primaries hasn't moved, as it will alter the target Y value for red. If the target has moved simply repeat the above process until the Y value is correct for the location of the measured primaries. How many times you need to do this depends on how much the primaries move each time you change the color setting. When you are done the red primary will be the correct brightness relative to white for its xy coordinates but the primary will probably still be oversaturated to some extent.

 

[matt_johnson83]

The delta e's are high due too the low luminance, And the delta e's on color is different the cie94. On cie94 when the luminance is right should be under six.


I had the same problem.

 

[HIMS]

Thanks, what patterns do I use on the AVS disc, 100% or 75%?

 

[matt_johnson83]



Quote:
Originally Posted by HIMS /forum/post/18245447


Thanks, what patterns do I use on the AVS disc, 100% or 75%?

I use 75% ,But you can use either one as long as you use the correct white percentage.

 

[ChrisWiggles]



Quote:
In calibrating my panasonic 65s1 with my eye one lt I can't seem to wrap my head around the color. On one hand if I turn down the saturation to about 25 my primaries look more accurate on the cie chart but my dE's are higher.

That's because you're not supposed to do that.


If you don't have a CMS, you can't do anything about the locations of your primaries. They are what they are. The CIE chart is not really useful to you for that besides out of curiosity of knowing where your primaries are.


The global "color saturation" control is not adjusting the location of the primaries, it's adjusting the chroma level, which is more like colorfulness or basically the brightness of colors and not CIE saturation at all. If you turn it down far enough, eventually your image will be black and white. As you reduce it far enough the primary colors get washed out towards grey which is why eventually they will move inwards if you measure them on a CIE chart, but you've used the entirely wrong control to accomplish that and basically wiped out most of the color in your image.


Basically, there is no reason to be looking at a CIE chart while adjusting the color saturation control (which is VERY different than the TRUE saturation controls that are deployed by a CMS).


Basically, without a CMS you can't fix the primary chromaticities, so the CIE chart is not useful to you except again out of your own curiosity to know what your display's gamut happens to be. But you can't do anything about that.


You set the color saturation control with color bars.

 

[jkcheng122]



Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles /forum/post/18245766


Basically, there is no reason to be looking at a CIE chart while adjusting the color saturation control (which is VERY different than the TRUE saturation controls that are deployed by a CMS).


Basically, without a CMS you can't fix the primary chromaticities, so the CIE chart is not useful to you except again out of your own curiosity to know what your display's gamut happens to be. But you can't do anything about that.


You set the color saturation control with color bars.

Do the Delta E's and Color Luminance Graph mean anything when adjusting Tint and Color?

 

[mmoh00]



Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles /forum/post/18245766


The global "color saturation" control is not adjusting the location of the primaries, it's adjusting the chroma level, which is more like colorfulness or basically the brightness of colors and not CIE saturation at all.

Why do you say it doesn't affect the CIE saturation at all when it does move the color toward the white point at its lowest setting?


A color is completely described by xyY, isn't it? What is the definition, or how would you describe 'chroma' in terms of xyY? I see your "basically the brightness of colors" comment but...


Sorry, I'm not trying to challlenge your post. I'm fairly new to this and I just haven't been able to understand the color control really well. Thanks for any info.

 

[jkcheng122]



Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 /forum/post/18250222


Why do you say it doesn't affect the CIE saturation at all when it does move the color toward the white point at its lowest setting?


A color is completely described by xyY, isn't it? What is the definition, or how would you describe 'chroma' in terms of xyY? I see your "basically the brightness of colors" comment but...


Sorry, I'm not trying to challlenge your post. I'm fairly new to this and I just haven't been able to understand the color control really well. Thanks for any info.

Not sure on all the sciences behind it but one thing is for sure if you just change color/tint settings to make red match the standard, your other color points will be way off.

 

[angryht]



Quote:
Originally Posted by HIMS /forum/post/18244587


In calibrating my panasonic 65s1 with my eye one lt I can't seem to wrap my head around the color. On one hand if I turn down the saturation to about 25 my primaries look more accurate on the cie chart but my dE's are higher. If I calibrate red to 21% of Y (100% grey) my dE's are all 25 or less (still not great), but the saturation looks too rich and it puts me at 36 on my color. Is there something I am missing? There is no CMS on this tv, but I am asking which one is more accurate, the lower saturation with the closer primaries or the correct luminance? I've attached a pic of my cie chart. The wider grey triangle is the correct luminance color at 36, the smaller triangle is the color at 25. Any input would be appreciated.

I would encourage this approach:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U /forum/post/18244721


Forget about dE's for the moment. Measure your primaries at the default color setting and then input the data into this spreadsheet .


Simply copy and paste the xyY data from ColorHCFR into the "color corrector" tab of the spreadsheet where it says to paste to and then aim to minimize the "difference in Y from target." To do this you want to aim for the target red Y value in the "new targets" area. When you have the red Y value as close to the target as you can get it, you must remeasure your primaries and use the spreadsheet again to confirm the xy of your primaries hasn't moved, as it will alter the target Y value for red. If the target has moved simply repeat the above process until the Y value is correct for the location of the measured primaries. How many times you need to do this depends on how much the primaries move each time you change the color setting. When you are done the red primary will be the correct brightness relative to white for its xy coordinates but the primary will probably still be oversaturated to some extent.

Once you get the color level (Y) close to the new target (based on your specific primaries), then adjust the tint so the secondaries are as close (x,y), in terms of the CIE diagram as you can get them to the 'new' targets. The new targets will be calculated from the primaries in the spreadsheet.

 

[jkcheng122]



Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U /forum/post/18244721


Simply copy and paste the xyY data from ColorHCFR into the "color corrector" tab of the spreadsheet where it says to paste to and then aim to minimize the "difference in Y from target." To do this you want to aim for the target red Y value in the "new targets" area. When you have the red Y value as close to the target as you can get it, you must remeasure your primaries and use the spreadsheet again to confirm the xy of your primaries hasn't moved, as it will alter the target Y value for red. If the target has moved simply repeat the above process until the Y value is correct for the location of the measured primaries. How many times you need to do this depends on how much the primaries move each time you change the color setting. When you are done the red primary will be the correct brightness relative to white for its xy coordinates but the primary will probably still be oversaturated to some extent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by angryht /forum/post/18250556


I would encourage this approach:


Once you get the color level (Y) close to the new target (based on your specific primaries), then adjust the tint so the secondaries are as close (x,y), in terms of the CIE diagram as you can get them to the 'new' targets. The new targets will be calculated from the primaries in the spreadsheet.

What are acceptable % in difference for Y from target? Would adjusting the color setting for red also make the % diff larger for Green and Blue?

 

[PlasmaPZ80U]



Quote:
Originally Posted by angryht /forum/post/18250556


I would encourage this approach:




Once you get the color level (Y) close to the new target (based on your specific primaries), then adjust the tint so the secondaries are as close (x,y), in terms of the CIE diagram as you can get them to the 'new' targets. The new targets will be calculated from the primaries in the spreadsheet.

I made this recommendation because using color bars would require a good red filter that doesn't leak, which is pretty rare as far as I've heard. Also, such a approach may not work with over saturated primaries and setting tint with a filter only gets one secondary right at a time. A meter can let you minimize the overall errors of all three secondaries. Getting the Y right for red might negatively impact the Y values for blue and green, but red is most critical for skin tones. The blue filter approach with a non-leaking blue filter would give a color setting that's much too high for red (skin tones) and will only get cyan right. Furthermore, this display has a non-standard gamut and I don't believe the color bars approach will work well with a non-standard gamut, neither for color nor tint.

 

[PlasmaPZ80U]



Quote:
Originally Posted by jkcheng122 /forum/post/18250697


What are acceptable % in difference for Y from target? Would adjusting the color setting for red also make the % diff larger for Green and Blue?

You want to do the best you can for red (as close to 0%) or alternatively balance the errors of red, green, and blue. I recommend focusing on red since skintones are the most noticeable error for most people on any display and red is the main component in skintones. Green errors are less noticeable and blue errors are barely noticeable.

 

[angryht]



Quote:
Originally Posted by jkcheng122 /forum/post/18250697


What are acceptable % in difference for Y from target? Would adjusting the color setting for red also make the % diff larger for Green and Blue?

Just get the red Y as close to the new target as you can get it. Sorry, looks like I'm just repeating what Plasma said (and I think he did a better job).

 

[PlasmaPZ80U]



Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 /forum/post/18250222


Why do you say it doesn't affect the CIE saturation at all when it does move the color toward the white point at its lowest setting?


A color is completely described by xyY, isn't it? What is the definition, or how would you describe 'chroma' in terms of xyY? I see your "basically the brightness of colors" comment but...


Sorry, I'm not trying to challlenge your post. I'm fairly new to this and I just haven't been able to understand the color control really well. Thanks for any info.

In reality, the color control does affect saturation, but only with large changes in the color setting. It affects color luminance primarily, though, and I believe that's the point Chris is making. Trying to set saturation with the color control will result in massive color luminance errors and that's why that approach isn't recommended.

 

[jkcheng122]

Thanks for the info. Will check it out when I get a chance.

 

[ChrisWiggles]



Quote:
Originally Posted by mmoh00 /forum/post/18250222


Why do you say it doesn't affect the CIE saturation at all when it does move the color toward the white point at its lowest setting?


A color is completely described by xyY, isn't it? What is the definition, or how would you describe 'chroma' in terms of xyY? I see your "basically the brightness of colors" comment but...


Sorry, I'm not trying to challlenge your post. I'm fairly new to this and I just haven't been able to understand the color control really well. Thanks for any info.

Key is in the following sentences:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisWiggles /forum/post/0


If you turn it down far enough, eventually your image will be black and white. As you reduce it far enough the primary colors get washed out towards grey which is why eventually they will move inwards if you measure them on a CIE chart, but you've used the entirely wrong control to accomplish that and basically wiped out most of the color in your image.

So yes eventually you do see changes on the CIE chart, but its an ancillary change that isn't what the control is intended for, and if you do it this way you are causing far more severe problems in your image that *might* have a side-effect of getting you a more accurate gamut with 100% saturated colors, but everything else will be horribly screwed up.

 

[ChrisWiggles]



Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasmaPZ80U /forum/post/18250808


In reality, the color control does affect saturation, but only with large changes in the color setting. It affects color luminance primarily, though, and I believe that's the point Chris is making. Trying to set saturation with the color control will result in massive color luminance errors and that's why that approach isn't recommended.

Exactly, it's a pyrrhic victory.


There is no way to fix the gamut without a CMS. If you have a flat tire you fix the flat tire, you don't go around stabbing all the other tires to make them more equal to your flat. And that's basically what you're doing by using the global 'color saturation' control which can't fix your gamut problem and isn't supposed to. All you're doing is making everything else WAY worse, and the gamut problem is actually still there in reality, it's just that you've screwed eveyrything up so bad that if you measure one narrow particular thing it may appear that you've made things better when you've actually just destroyed 99% of everything else, kind of like slashing all your remaining tires in an attempt to "fix" the flat.


If you lose a limb, you learn to live with crutches or a fake leg or something. You deal with it. It isn't perfect but absent a solution you live with it. You don't go and cut off all your remaining arms and legs in an attempt to compensate and make things "evened-out" or something. That really doesn't help. It just makes everything way worse and doesn't actually help improve anything at all.


If your gamut is wrong, you live with it. If it is really important to you, then you can buy a video processor or other device which has CMS capabilities to fix it outside the display. Or you buy a new display with that capability or a more accurate gamut.


And the question remains: if you didn't measure it with a color meter, would you even have ever known that your gamut is off? Would it ever have bothered you? For most people who aren't color professionals and without a very seriously over or under-saturated gamut you likely would never know and things would look just fantastic.

 

[glaufman]



Quote:
Originally Posted by chriswiggles /forum/post/18251293


there is no way to fix the gamut without a cms. If you have a flat tire you fix the flat tire, you don't go around stabbing all the other tires to make them more equal to your flat.

Quote:
if you lose a limb, you learn to live with crutches or a fake leg or something. You deal with it. It isn't perfect but absent a solution you live with it. You don't go and cut off all your remaining arms and legs in an attempt to compensate and make things "evened-out" or something.

these are great!

 

[mmoh00]

Thanks everyone. I have couple more questions:


Q1: OK, this may be a stupid one. When the color setting is lowered, the luminance does go down for r, g, or b. But how come the white luminance doesn't go down? Isn't it just a sum of rgb pixels?


Q2: If my primaries are oversaturated compared to the 709 gamut, why should I adjust the tint value in respect to the 'new' secondary targets as mentioned above? If the source uses the 709 gamut, shouldn't I still try to minimize the dE with respect to the 709 secondaries? I mean, if the input color is a yellow, I would want that to look as close to the 709 yellow, not a new yellow point derived from my oversaturated primaries, don't I? I think this has been discussed before but I haven't found a clear answer.