Cinemateq vs DVDO iScan HD
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Hello, all
Sorry to keep you waiting.
We have been tremendously impressed with the performance of the scaling abilities and also as far as i know this would the only scaler with dual SDI input. I would not say that quality would be better then iScan HD, it’s different. I would say it would have brighter picture and very simple to use; however has all types of different adjustments. Very nice option of the 3-line display which shows all that you are doing.
We have been fully convinced with performance; therefore we now carry the full line of Cinemateq picture optimizer products and have already had a few great comments from customers.
The disadvantage side we have discovered is no dvi pass-through connection, and no audio inputs.
Thank you
Best regards,
Mike
p.s. not advertising this product just wanted to let you guys know what is available.
Sorry to keep you waiting.
We have been tremendously impressed with the performance of the scaling abilities and also as far as i know this would the only scaler with dual SDI input. I would not say that quality would be better then iScan HD, it’s different. I would say it would have brighter picture and very simple to use; however has all types of different adjustments. Very nice option of the 3-line display which shows all that you are doing.
We have been fully convinced with performance; therefore we now carry the full line of Cinemateq picture optimizer products and have already had a few great comments from customers.
The disadvantage side we have discovered is no dvi pass-through connection, and no audio inputs.
Thank you
Best regards,
Mike
p.s. not advertising this product just wanted to let you guys know what is available.
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And it should be mentioned that the Cinemateq only processes interlaced SD sources, for instance no scaling of 480p or 576p, only pass through.
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Might also want to mention that the PMS Crystalio has multiple SDI inputs as do all the Lumagen scalers (optional on DVI and HDP and standard on HDP Pro)
Gordon
Gordon
Dear all,
we saw discussion going around about our cinemateq picture optimizer plus II SDI ...
Let me comment on or better explain a few things regarding our device and strategy behind it:
cinemateq is one of the international leading brands in the area of video picture optimizing for the private home cinema and professional presentation sector. Both the self developed, innovative optimizing technologies and the constantly growing product portfolio of home entertainment components concentrate on the future of visual media: digital video technology in HDTV standard.
The cinemateq picture optimizer model series developed based on patented video optimizing technologies, which generates a high resolution HDTV signal out of common TV- and DVD video data and therefore enables a much higher quality picture rendition in conjunction with a projector and/or flat screen, is renowned as a standard for scaling and video picture processing in the industry. This is also confirmed by the international specialized press with outstanding results in test reviews on a regular basis.
The cinemateq picture optimizer plus II SDI discussed here is a device designed in Germany and manufactured in Europe.
The concept behind it is, to leave all hardware stable as long as possible and/or reasonable, improve the firmware controlling the device to meet every need a customer may have now and in the upcoming years and so provide a future liable video engine and "switch board" for all current and foreseeable video formats up to 1080p. All this according to latest SMPTE standards for both PAL, NTSC and HDTV (be it US or European format).
The interface design of the device incorporates both European and NTSC market needs with two integrated SDI interfaces (e.g. for DVD player and SAT-/cable receiver) next to all the others delivering the best possible signal quality available as of today. It transfers the original digital data stream and so enables a pure digital signal path delivering HDTV quality to every customer using the device. The quality of this signal is hardly reached by any DVD player with progressive DVI- or HDMI-output.
Our scaler is however not capable of scaling progressive input signals as already mentioned by continuity:
Possible errors occuring due to the internal filmmode detection of the mentioned DVD players can hardly be corrected afterwards by any scaler. External DVI- or HDMI video sources in HDTV resolution are rather output than input signals from our perspective. We recommend to "pass them through" by using external DVI Switchers (also capable of HDMI with the correct adapter) directly to the displaying device used.
This is similar for true HDTV signals. They can hardly be improved and can also be directly bypassed. Therefore the picture optimizer plus II (SDI) offers two HDTV bypass inputs.
The biggest improvement in regards to picture optimization can be achieved when processing today's interlaced signals, whereas the picture optimizer plus II SDI offers two "loss free" SDI inputs for highest requirements in regards to picture quality and fexibility.
The picture optimizer plus II (SDI) is capable of creating any output signal from 480i/480p up to 1080i/1080p and so ensures that a customer can use the device for any of the displaying devices that are to be brought to market during the next years.
However
We put very high attention on delevering the best possible support for each and every customer (be it distributors, dealers and/or consumers) as customer satisfaction is our highest priority at all.
We're open for any questions and comments on our products. Feel free to post any thoughts you may have to this forum. We will answer on a regular basis.
Thank you very much and best regards
Your cinemateq team
Udo Ratai
Manager Product Development
we saw discussion going around about our cinemateq picture optimizer plus II SDI ...
Let me comment on or better explain a few things regarding our device and strategy behind it:
cinemateq is one of the international leading brands in the area of video picture optimizing for the private home cinema and professional presentation sector. Both the self developed, innovative optimizing technologies and the constantly growing product portfolio of home entertainment components concentrate on the future of visual media: digital video technology in HDTV standard.
The cinemateq picture optimizer model series developed based on patented video optimizing technologies, which generates a high resolution HDTV signal out of common TV- and DVD video data and therefore enables a much higher quality picture rendition in conjunction with a projector and/or flat screen, is renowned as a standard for scaling and video picture processing in the industry. This is also confirmed by the international specialized press with outstanding results in test reviews on a regular basis.
The cinemateq picture optimizer plus II SDI discussed here is a device designed in Germany and manufactured in Europe.
The concept behind it is, to leave all hardware stable as long as possible and/or reasonable, improve the firmware controlling the device to meet every need a customer may have now and in the upcoming years and so provide a future liable video engine and "switch board" for all current and foreseeable video formats up to 1080p. All this according to latest SMPTE standards for both PAL, NTSC and HDTV (be it US or European format).
The interface design of the device incorporates both European and NTSC market needs with two integrated SDI interfaces (e.g. for DVD player and SAT-/cable receiver) next to all the others delivering the best possible signal quality available as of today. It transfers the original digital data stream and so enables a pure digital signal path delivering HDTV quality to every customer using the device. The quality of this signal is hardly reached by any DVD player with progressive DVI- or HDMI-output.
Our scaler is however not capable of scaling progressive input signals as already mentioned by continuity:
Possible errors occuring due to the internal filmmode detection of the mentioned DVD players can hardly be corrected afterwards by any scaler. External DVI- or HDMI video sources in HDTV resolution are rather output than input signals from our perspective. We recommend to "pass them through" by using external DVI Switchers (also capable of HDMI with the correct adapter) directly to the displaying device used.
This is similar for true HDTV signals. They can hardly be improved and can also be directly bypassed. Therefore the picture optimizer plus II (SDI) offers two HDTV bypass inputs.
The biggest improvement in regards to picture optimization can be achieved when processing today's interlaced signals, whereas the picture optimizer plus II SDI offers two "loss free" SDI inputs for highest requirements in regards to picture quality and fexibility.
The picture optimizer plus II (SDI) is capable of creating any output signal from 480i/480p up to 1080i/1080p and so ensures that a customer can use the device for any of the displaying devices that are to be brought to market during the next years.
However
We put very high attention on delevering the best possible support for each and every customer (be it distributors, dealers and/or consumers) as customer satisfaction is our highest priority at all.
We're open for any questions and comments on our products. Feel free to post any thoughts you may have to this forum. We will answer on a regular basis.
Thank you very much and best regards
Your cinemateq team
Udo Ratai
Manager Product Development
Dear Udo! Thank you for all the info. Quite enlighting. Do Cinemateq plan on using the newly developed Realta chip in any of your new products? If not, do you plan on bringing out some kind of new picture processing technology, which will rival the performance of the above mentioned chip?
I'm currently testing the Picture Optimizer Plus II (non-SDI) with my equipment, that is a 3910 and P50, along with digital TV and XBOX. The PO has not the latest firmware applied (3.30) but I expect only minor improvements PQ wise compared to the actual applied firmware 3.10.
My current configuration is:
3910/PAL -> DVI/1080i -> P50
TV/PAL -> RGB -> P50
XBOX -> YUV/480p -> P50
Now I compared this using the PO as a central hub connected via DVI to the P50:
3910/PAL -> YUV/576i -> PO
TV/PAL -> RGB -> PO -> DVI/1366x768(NR) -> P50
XBOX -> YUV/480i -> PO
To my understanding this is the optimal configuration in this scenario.
These are my findings:
DVD:
- less/no picture cropping of PO compared to 3910 (on the other hand, that sometimes leads to black bars on the left or right side, the 3910 seems to crop a bit, so you rarely see black bars, only noticed in Blade Runner R2 so far)
- on PO I couldn't see blacker than black drop shadow from the THX Optimizer, whereas on 3910 I can perfectly see it, the PO was correctly configured to output video levels (16-235) over DVI like the 3910 (Normal, IRE0), I didn't see any real world difference though when playing normal DVDs regarding shadow detail
- less/no artifacts compared to 3910, the picture of PO looks a bit more unprocessed or raw compared to the 3910, who seems to perform some sort of noise reduction or cleaning even if NR is completely switched off (the picture controls on 3910 and PO are completely switched off for that test BTW), IMHO that leads sometimes to visible MB artifacts on 3910
- slightly less natural colors compared to 3910 but I assume the cause for that is the additional DA/AD conversion, I would expect similar or better quality when using SDI path
Overall the picture produced by the PO is very similar to the 3910 in terms of detail, deinterlacing, motion compensation and color reproduction. However in the current configuration I'm preferring the picture of 3910 because of its slightly cleaner and natural look, despite the fact that you sometimes see MB artifacts.
Nevertheless the PO gives an impressive performance on 576i signals (over very cheap YUV cables BTW), which produces a comparable picture to the 3910 (which is to date considered as on of the best progressive players), I expect an even better picture using the pure digital SDI path, which should surpass the 3910 picture (well it already does in some aspects).
Maybe its more a matter of taste, whereas the 3910 produces a more living room compatible picture (slightly cleaned up, slightly cropped) the PO produces a more accurate, laboratory compatible picture (raw, uncropped).
TV:
Surprisingly for PAL/RGB signals I found the PQ of the internal P50 scaler much better than the PO, the picture was simply more vibrant when the TV was directly connected to the P50 than using the PO in between. Undoubtedly the picture gets improved when using the PO, but simply not as good as when using the internal P50 scaler.
XBOX:
Unfortunately as stated before the PO cannot process progressive signals, so I had to disable the 480p output on my XBOX, unsurprisingly the deinterlaced and upscaled 480i picture does'nt look as good as a "native" unscaled 480p picture. In contrast to DVD which only contains encoded interlaced material, the XBOX can produce real progressive signals, when disabling the progressive output, the XBOX performs additional interlacing, this obviously cannot be reverted without significant loss of quality. So for XBOX the PO is right now a no go.
Conclusion:
When using as an external DVD scaler, the PO surely is a solid performer, providing a picture that is similar to current top consumer DVD players plus there is still room for improvement when using the pure digital SDI path, which should provide a superior picture.
Improvement of interlaced TV signals is definitely there, but in my scenario is simply not good enough.
I will return the PO as it only partially met my expectations. I would have spent around 1.500 Euro (MSRP) for a similar (non SDI) or 1.900 Euro for a supposedly even better DVD picture (SDI) while getting an at most equal TV and XBOX picture using pass through modes.
Regards,
Markus
My current configuration is:
3910/PAL -> DVI/1080i -> P50
TV/PAL -> RGB -> P50
XBOX -> YUV/480p -> P50
Now I compared this using the PO as a central hub connected via DVI to the P50:
3910/PAL -> YUV/576i -> PO
TV/PAL -> RGB -> PO -> DVI/1366x768(NR) -> P50
XBOX -> YUV/480i -> PO
To my understanding this is the optimal configuration in this scenario.
These are my findings:
DVD:
- less/no picture cropping of PO compared to 3910 (on the other hand, that sometimes leads to black bars on the left or right side, the 3910 seems to crop a bit, so you rarely see black bars, only noticed in Blade Runner R2 so far)
- on PO I couldn't see blacker than black drop shadow from the THX Optimizer, whereas on 3910 I can perfectly see it, the PO was correctly configured to output video levels (16-235) over DVI like the 3910 (Normal, IRE0), I didn't see any real world difference though when playing normal DVDs regarding shadow detail
- less/no artifacts compared to 3910, the picture of PO looks a bit more unprocessed or raw compared to the 3910, who seems to perform some sort of noise reduction or cleaning even if NR is completely switched off (the picture controls on 3910 and PO are completely switched off for that test BTW), IMHO that leads sometimes to visible MB artifacts on 3910
- slightly less natural colors compared to 3910 but I assume the cause for that is the additional DA/AD conversion, I would expect similar or better quality when using SDI path
Overall the picture produced by the PO is very similar to the 3910 in terms of detail, deinterlacing, motion compensation and color reproduction. However in the current configuration I'm preferring the picture of 3910 because of its slightly cleaner and natural look, despite the fact that you sometimes see MB artifacts.
Nevertheless the PO gives an impressive performance on 576i signals (over very cheap YUV cables BTW), which produces a comparable picture to the 3910 (which is to date considered as on of the best progressive players), I expect an even better picture using the pure digital SDI path, which should surpass the 3910 picture (well it already does in some aspects).
Maybe its more a matter of taste, whereas the 3910 produces a more living room compatible picture (slightly cleaned up, slightly cropped) the PO produces a more accurate, laboratory compatible picture (raw, uncropped).
TV:
Surprisingly for PAL/RGB signals I found the PQ of the internal P50 scaler much better than the PO, the picture was simply more vibrant when the TV was directly connected to the P50 than using the PO in between. Undoubtedly the picture gets improved when using the PO, but simply not as good as when using the internal P50 scaler.
XBOX:
Unfortunately as stated before the PO cannot process progressive signals, so I had to disable the 480p output on my XBOX, unsurprisingly the deinterlaced and upscaled 480i picture does'nt look as good as a "native" unscaled 480p picture. In contrast to DVD which only contains encoded interlaced material, the XBOX can produce real progressive signals, when disabling the progressive output, the XBOX performs additional interlacing, this obviously cannot be reverted without significant loss of quality. So for XBOX the PO is right now a no go.
Conclusion:
When using as an external DVD scaler, the PO surely is a solid performer, providing a picture that is similar to current top consumer DVD players plus there is still room for improvement when using the pure digital SDI path, which should provide a superior picture.
Improvement of interlaced TV signals is definitely there, but in my scenario is simply not good enough.
I will return the PO as it only partially met my expectations. I would have spent around 1.500 Euro (MSRP) for a similar (non SDI) or 1.900 Euro for a supposedly even better DVD picture (SDI) while getting an at most equal TV and XBOX picture using pass through modes.
Regards,
Markus
Dear humax,
we are not planing to use the Realta chip. Software development is more important than the chip and it takes much time. May be we can introduce more functions and better quality by further develope the existing software. We have many ideas to create a new product with the next generation chip, not the same we use now, but we have to look carefully to the HDTV market.
Since most of the coming new HDTV projectors will have 1080i/p converters inside, no big picture improvement is possible anymore. If we scale a analog HDTV YUV signal, we have loss of quality because of A/D-conversion of the input signal and, if nessesary again, with D/A-Conversion of the output signal. In result, nobody will see a improvement of picture quality (flicker of 1080i is nearly not visible). But loss off sharpness / S/N etc. is visible because of additional A/D and D/A conversion. Who wants to spent lot of money for this small or even bad result? Who wants to scale computer signals, if there is a fexible grafic board inside the computer? In the moment, we just By Pass Progressive or HDTV signals with analog or digital switchers. Videoswitchung and amplifying (splitting) of analog and digital sources will be the most important feature in the future and also will we part of the design of next generation scalers of cinemateq. But you can allready get any solution with optional DVI 4:1 switchers or DVI 1:5 amplifiers today.
Udo Ratai, Manager Product Developement cinemateq
we are not planing to use the Realta chip. Software development is more important than the chip and it takes much time. May be we can introduce more functions and better quality by further develope the existing software. We have many ideas to create a new product with the next generation chip, not the same we use now, but we have to look carefully to the HDTV market.
Since most of the coming new HDTV projectors will have 1080i/p converters inside, no big picture improvement is possible anymore. If we scale a analog HDTV YUV signal, we have loss of quality because of A/D-conversion of the input signal and, if nessesary again, with D/A-Conversion of the output signal. In result, nobody will see a improvement of picture quality (flicker of 1080i is nearly not visible). But loss off sharpness / S/N etc. is visible because of additional A/D and D/A conversion. Who wants to spent lot of money for this small or even bad result? Who wants to scale computer signals, if there is a fexible grafic board inside the computer? In the moment, we just By Pass Progressive or HDTV signals with analog or digital switchers. Videoswitchung and amplifying (splitting) of analog and digital sources will be the most important feature in the future and also will we part of the design of next generation scalers of cinemateq. But you can allready get any solution with optional DVI 4:1 switchers or DVI 1:5 amplifiers today.
Udo Ratai, Manager Product Developement cinemateq
Dear fiftyinch,
Thank you for your tests on DVD, TV and XBOX with the picture optimizer plus II
Here my comments:
DVD: DVD picture quality depends strongly on the used input signal. As you mentioned, the loss of two D/A- and D/A-convertions of any analog input signal can never be recreated during the signal processing inside a digital videoscaler (like the picture optimizer plus II). The picture quality of the picture optimizer plus II SDI combined with a SDI-modified DVD-Player is the biggest step in quality and makes a great difference. If you compare this setup with the Denon 3910, you will get other results by sure. However, no DVI/HDMI-DVD-Player will give you features like flexible overscan (70% to 100%), adjustable Colout Temperature/Gamma/Colour Correction on Gain and Offset separetely on R,G,B, Aspect Ratio switching, flexible scaling inside 4 customer menus, electronic lens shift, etc. or videoswitching functions. With adjustable contrast/brightness and additional switchable VESA/SMPTE setting you should also have no problems to see the under black bars.
TV: Quality of Digital Video Boadcast is rather poor because of low data rates. Also our sharpness control is working on highest video frequencies (6 MHz) to achieve the best picture quality on high quality DVDs without artefacts like ringing on edges. But sharpness adjustment may be is not enhancing low resolution signals, ending near 3 or 4 MHz luminance. Therefore we have enhanced the horizontal sharpness adjustments with new firmware 3.30. But anyway, DVB-TV-Signal quality can hardly be enhanced. If we use a Humax SAT-receiver with SDI output, we realy see MPEG artefacts like block noise or mosquito noise even more. The only way to improve TV picture quality is to talk with the broadcasters. If they would spend higher data rates, the picture of the Humax SDI-SAT-Receiver should nearly meet the breathtaking quality of a SDI-DVD-Player, because it is the same lossless signal processing inside the picture optimizer plus II SDI! Using SDI inputs, you see the quality of authering (both of DVB-TV or DVDs).
XBOX: The signal quality of XBOX is LDTV or low resolution with even worse artefacts coming from poor data rates. If you convert this signal into interlaced, quality must be worse because of additional signal processing has to be done (progressive into interlaced, analog into digital, digital into analog...). Please use the By Pass function for this type if signal...
Please contact the cinemateq support service in Germany in any cases!
Udo Ratai, Manager Product Development cinemateq
Thank you for your tests on DVD, TV and XBOX with the picture optimizer plus II
Here my comments:
DVD: DVD picture quality depends strongly on the used input signal. As you mentioned, the loss of two D/A- and D/A-convertions of any analog input signal can never be recreated during the signal processing inside a digital videoscaler (like the picture optimizer plus II). The picture quality of the picture optimizer plus II SDI combined with a SDI-modified DVD-Player is the biggest step in quality and makes a great difference. If you compare this setup with the Denon 3910, you will get other results by sure. However, no DVI/HDMI-DVD-Player will give you features like flexible overscan (70% to 100%), adjustable Colout Temperature/Gamma/Colour Correction on Gain and Offset separetely on R,G,B, Aspect Ratio switching, flexible scaling inside 4 customer menus, electronic lens shift, etc. or videoswitching functions. With adjustable contrast/brightness and additional switchable VESA/SMPTE setting you should also have no problems to see the under black bars.
TV: Quality of Digital Video Boadcast is rather poor because of low data rates. Also our sharpness control is working on highest video frequencies (6 MHz) to achieve the best picture quality on high quality DVDs without artefacts like ringing on edges. But sharpness adjustment may be is not enhancing low resolution signals, ending near 3 or 4 MHz luminance. Therefore we have enhanced the horizontal sharpness adjustments with new firmware 3.30. But anyway, DVB-TV-Signal quality can hardly be enhanced. If we use a Humax SAT-receiver with SDI output, we realy see MPEG artefacts like block noise or mosquito noise even more. The only way to improve TV picture quality is to talk with the broadcasters. If they would spend higher data rates, the picture of the Humax SDI-SAT-Receiver should nearly meet the breathtaking quality of a SDI-DVD-Player, because it is the same lossless signal processing inside the picture optimizer plus II SDI! Using SDI inputs, you see the quality of authering (both of DVB-TV or DVDs).
XBOX: The signal quality of XBOX is LDTV or low resolution with even worse artefacts coming from poor data rates. If you convert this signal into interlaced, quality must be worse because of additional signal processing has to be done (progressive into interlaced, analog into digital, digital into analog...). Please use the By Pass function for this type if signal...
Please contact the cinemateq support service in Germany in any cases!
Udo Ratai, Manager Product Development cinemateq
Quote:
I'm pretty sure it does, but I cannot confirm this until I've seen it personally.
Quote:
The PO was setup for DVI signal type and SMTP levels, according to the manual this is the correct setup for allowing BTB. Again I could'nt see it in test patterns, but I have to admit I did'nt tweak contrast and brightness.
Quote:
My point was here that the PQ of the internal P50 scaler provided noticeable better results with PAL RGB signals compared to the PO.
Markus
| Originally posted by cinemateq The picture quality of the picture optimizer plus II SDI combined with a SDI-modified DVD-Player is the biggest step in quality and makes a great difference. If you compare this setup with the Denon 3910, you will get other results by sure. |
Quote:
With adjustable contrast/brightness and additional switchable VESA/SMPTE setting you should also have no problems to see the under black bars. |
Quote:
But anyway, DVB-TV-Signal quality can hardly be enhanced. If we use a Humax SAT-receiver with SDI output, we really see MPEG artifacts like block noise or mosquito noise even more. |
Markus
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Dear, Udo
Is it possible to see how the Cinemateq SDI performs. I am in California, USA.
Thank you
Is it possible to see how the Cinemateq SDI performs. I am in California, USA.
Thank you
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