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Exactly, you will continue to use a 16-235 patchscale setting, no need to use sub-space (it's for different applications).

If you want to create a custom patchset, you have to use 16-235 or 16-255 RGB -Triplets now. (or 0-255 for Data level, monitors etc.)

Before 1.0.0.885, we were using 0-255 custom patchlists only.

I will update the thread when I have ready the new patchsets.
Hi,
I bought ColourSpace ZRO yesterday, as I was having a lot of issues trying to get my SpyderX, HCFR and PGenerator to get along.
Today I tried calibrating my good old Panasonic ST50 plasma, but I've been struggling with what seems scaling issues on the patches being present by PGenerator.

Going through the forum, it seems to be very similar to the issue that v1.0.0.885 intends to fix.

The only way I've been able to get PGenerator to display a fully black patch, has been by setting Patch Scale to 16-235 and using a 0-255 patchlist. With the already mentioned downside of getting incorrect Y targets during calibration.
Using the method suggested above (patchscale 16-235 and patchlist 16-235) results in the patch being displayed as grey, instead of black.

I've double-checked and I can confirm I'm running version 1.0.0.885. I can also confirm that PGenerator is set to output RGB Full.

Any idea on what the issue might be? Could it be in some way related to my tv?
 

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Discussion Starter #183
Hi,
I bought ColourSpace ZRO yesterday, as I was having a lot of issues trying to get my SpyderX, HCFR and PGenerator to get along.
Today I tried calibrating my good old Panasonic ST50 plasma, but I've been struggling with what seems scaling issues on the patches being present by PGenerator.

Going through the forum, it seems to be very similar to the issue that v1.0.0.885 intends to fix.

The only way I've been able to get PGenerator to display a fully black patch, has been by setting Patch Scale to 16-235 and using a 0-255 patchlist. With the already mentioned downside of getting incorrect Y targets during calibration.
Using the method suggested above (patchscale 16-235 and patchlist 16-235) results in the patch being displayed as grey, instead of black.

I've double-checked and I can confirm I'm running version 1.0.0.885. I can also confirm that PGenerator is set to output RGB Full.

Any idea on what the issue might be? Could it be in some way related to my tv?
Hi,

There is no problem before 1.0.0.885 or after 1.0.0.885, with any calibration, when many settings are correct.

Have you configured the HDMI input of Panasonic to expect video/limited levels?

If you have your Panasonic HDMI input to AUTO, your levels will be wrong.

For Ted's PGenerator users, or calibration disk (media files/blu-ray), ZRO 1.0.0.885 works with a specific patchset (I haven't posted yet that they are available, but I created them yesterday, and they are available via email only)

Any version before 1.0.0.885, is working with a specific patchset (I have released it already, and ZRO users of Ted's users have them).

If you are using Ted's patchlist, open a grayscale CVS file.

If you see the 100% White as 255.255.255 means, then it's not compatible with 1.0.0.885.

If you see the 100% White as 235.235.235 means, then it's compatible with 1.0.0.885.

For a quicker response, only direct communication via contact us form, provide speedier support.
 

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Discussion Starter #184
To update ZRO is it necessary to uninstall the previous version?
Hi,

Install ColourSpace ZRO, and it will override older files.

No need to uninstall.
 

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Discussion Starter #185
Hi Ted,
For people who use the PC as the pattern generator, can the new version still be configure to work the “old” way, in case the PC graphic card is doing the scaling?
EDIT: Maybe one will just use 0-255 patcheset in that case?
Hi Dominic,

Sure, you can use a 0-255 patchlist.
 

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And for people who use PGenerator?
 

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Discussion Starter #187
And for people who use PGenerator?
Hi,

For Ted's calibration disk users (PGenerator/Blu-Ray/Media Files), please contact me to send you the new patchlists compatible with ColourSpaceZRO 1.0.0.885
 

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Hi,

There is no problem before 1.0.0.885 or after 1.0.0.885, with any calibration, when many settings are correct.

Have you configured the HDMI input of Panasonic to expect video/limited levels?

If you have your Panasonic HDMI input to AUTO, your levels will be wrong.

For Ted's PGenerator users, or calibration disk (media files/blu-ray), ZRO 1.0.0.885 works with a specific patchset (I haven't posted yet that they are available, but I created them yesterday, and they are available via email only)

Any version before 1.0.0.885, is working with a specific patchset (I have released it already, and ZRO users of Ted's users have them).

If you are using Ted's patchlist, open a grayscale CVS file.

If you see the 100% White as 255.255.255 means, then it's not compatible with 1.0.0.885.

If you see the 100% White as 235.235.235 means, then it's compatible with 1.0.0.885.

For a quicker response, only direct communication via contact us form, provide speedier support.
Hi Ted,
Thanks for the prompt reply.

It seems the issue might be related to my TV's input levels, as you've suggested. PGenerator is showing the same behaviour in HCFR.
Unfortunately, I haven't found a way to change my HDMI input levels to limited on this particular model.

I'll do some more research in the meantime, and use the contact form in case I'm not able to reach any conclusions.

Thank you once again.
 

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Discussion Starter #189
Hi Ted,
Thanks for the prompt reply.

It seems the issue might be related to my TV's input levels, as you've suggested. PGenerator is showing the same behaviour in HCFR.
Unfortunately, I haven't found a way to change my HDMI input levels to limited on this particular model.

I'll do some more research in the meantime, and use the contact form in case I'm not able to reach any conclusions.

Thank you once again.
Hi,

See page 143: http://static.appliancesconnection.com/attachments/D503e71b6224a6.pdf

Menu > Picture > HDMI settings -> HDMI Range -> Standard (16-235)
 

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Hi,

See page 143: http://static.appliancesconnection.com/attachments/D503e71b6224a6.pdf

Menu > Picture > HDMI settings -> HDMI Range -> Standard (16-235)
Thank you once again your help.

Unfortunately, my TV (TX-P50ST50E) menu doesn't match with this manual.

I'm running the latest version of the TV's firmware, and several of the options mentioned in the manual are either not there or have different names.
i.e. "Pro settings" in this manual are named "Advanced settings" in my device. There are also are no options for Black extension, Panel brightness, Contour emphasis, etc...

According to another manual that seems to match the UI for my device, there should be an option named DVI Input Setting, but it's not there.

I'll probably have to take a different approach. Most likely by removing the PGenerator from the loop, at least for now.

Appreciate your time on this, nonetheless.
 

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Discussion Starter #191
Thank you once again your help.

Unfortunately, my TV (TX-P50ST50E) menu doesn't match with this manual.

I'm running the latest version of the TV's firmware, and several of the options mentioned in the manual are either not there or have different names.
i.e. "Pro settings" in this manual are named "Advanced settings" in my device. There are also are no options for Black extension, Panel brightness, Contour emphasis, etc...

According to another manual that seems to match the UI for my device, there should be an option named DVI Input Setting, but it's not there.

I'll probably have to take a different approach. Most likely by removing the PGenerator from the loop, at least for now.

Appreciate your time on this, nonetheless.
Set PGenerator @ Settings Template to output RGB-Video.

Set ColourSpaceZRO patchscale 0-255 and then check if your Black Level is OK now.

You will have to use a 0-255 patchset, and you will get RGB-Video Triplet output.

I have checked with Grayscale and HDMI analyzer, and the output is OK.

Only one patch in ColorChecker Classic (Yellow) is -1 digital level off.

CMS and Grayscale are OK.

Contact me directly.
 

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Set PGenerator @ Settings Template to output RGB-Video.

Set ColourSpaceZRO patchscale 0-255 and then check if your Black Level is OK now.

You will have to use a 0-255 patchset, and you will get RGB-Video Triplet output.

I have checked with Grayscale and HDMI analyzer, and the output is OK.

Only one patch in ColorChecker Classic (Yellow) is -1 digital level off.

CMS and Grayscale are OK.

Contact me directly.
Perfect! I just ran a quick test and the black level seems to be OK now.
Thank you for taking the time checking the output of this setting.

I'll contact you directly if I come across any other stumbling block.
Thanks for all your support.
 

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No more sawtooth on the new ZRO. :)
We've added info to the website explaining more about range scaling, and the effect it has on readings.
(for manual measurement that are negligible, as they are below the CMS display control's granularity.)

The variations in your first graph shows two combined variations.
A low-frequency drift due to the display/prob issues, and the higher frequency (smaller variations) due to the 0-255/16-235 rounding.
See: HDMI User Guide
(Refresh your browser if you have been to the page before.)
As can be seen, rounding errors the higher frequency, and low-level.
(The Clip graph is great, as it really exaggerates the issue.)

Steve
 

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Steve,

Read your new webpage, very interesting and informative plots!

I want to let you know of a typo: “The second graphs selection shows graphics card rescaling, with the higher frequency variations in the graphs being caused by rounding errors between 0-155 should be 0-255 and 16-235 rescaling.”

The variations in your first graph shows two combined variations.
A low-frequency drift due to the display/prob issues, and the higher frequency (smaller variations) due to the 0-255/16-235 rounding.
Agree with the low frequency drift, I’ve since corrected that with better calibration using 16-255 patch scale on my display.

However, I didn’t use rounding to generate this chart: I matched patch list 16-235 to ZRO patch scale at 16-235, with TV set to Limited Range. So in theory this should be bit perfect. Contrast that to when there was rounding with the last version of ZRO:
3087389
 

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Thanks for the typo - fixed.

But, that graphs seems to show rounding errors...
Such a high- frequency, and consistent, variation really can't be anything else.
(Unless you have a very strange heat related issue with the display/probe/patch combo set you are using.)
What were the Black/White levels?
Were you suffering double scaling?
(What was the TPG?)

Steve
 

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(Unless you have a very strange heat related issue with the display/probe/patch combo set you are using.)
What were the Black/White levels?
Were you suffering double scaling?
(What was the TPG?)
All these could potentially be true, however the high frequency pattern in the clip chart doesn’t seem to translate to dif EOTF until higher luminance. Is this what you’re referring to?
3087391


Black level: 0.04-0.05 nits depending on meter noise
White level: ~120 nits
TPG = PGenerator set to RGB Full

It’s very conceivable the display is introducing this kind of error for 8 bit steps, no? Because both the incoming signal and RGB adjustment slider are in discrete steps.
 
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