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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been pouring over the limited information Vizio has put out on theie CES website (here: http://ces.vizio.com/p-series.html#skip ) as well a the information Wired put into their article on the 2014 Vizio models (here: http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2014/01/vizio-new-tvs-ces/ ) to try to figure out if it will be worth waiting for the P-Series panel or I should jump on the M-Series panel as soon as it (finally :) comes out.


Here is a summary of what I have been able to figure out:




Specification____________M-Series______P-Series

Resolution______________1080p _______4K (UHDTV)

Native Refresh__________120Hz________120Hz

Clear Action Rate________720Hz________960Hz

Local Dimming Zones_____32 (4x8?)_____64 (8X8?)

24fps Cinema Mode______no?__________yes

48fps Cinema Mode______no___________no?

Active Pixel Tuning______yes___________yes

High Velocity Mode______no?__________yes

Contrast______________20M:1_________50M:1



The additional pixel resolution is a clear difference between the P and the M, but it gets a bit fuzzier after that.


The larger number of dimming zones in the P Series should allow for some improvement in blacks/shadow detail/lack of blooming, but 32 and 64 are both a small number of local dimming zones (compared tot he Sharp Elite with over 200 ldzs or the Vizio Reference Series with 384 ldzs), so it is unclear how different the performance of these two panels will be. Said another way, if Vizio has discovered some new 'secret sauce' (such as Active Pixel Tuning, for example) to greatly improve local dimming performance with only 64 ldzs, there is a good chance that much of that same improvement would also be visible with half the number of ldzs...


The difference in 'Clear Action Rate' between the two sets is minor. It ought to mean pixels are only left 'ON' for 1.4ms on the M Series and 1.0ms on the P Series, but both of these should deliver a significant reduction in motion blur and I don't expect any real visible difference between them.


The P Series supports a native 24fps 'Pure Cinema Mode' and with a 120Hz native panel, the M Series could support this same 24fps true Cinema Mode, but it is unclear if the M will offer this feature or if it has been held back for a 'dumbing down' marketing strategy.


The P Series claims to also support a 'true' 48fps True Cinema Mode, but this should be impossible with a 120Hz panel, l and since the wired article makes no reference to this 48fps Cinema Mode, I am guessing that this is a typo in the Vizio CES website...

Both the M and the P support Active Pixel Tuning (compared to the E Series, which makes no reference to this technology), so that is not a difference.


And like the 24fps Pure Cinema Mode, the P Series explicitly lists a 120Hz 'High Velocity Mode' for gaming which should also be a feature that can be supported by the M Series panel, but since no mention is made of it, it may have been held back for a 'dumbing down' marketing strategy.


The contrast of the P Series is supposedly 50 million to 1 versus the M with 'only' 20 million to 1, so it would appear that they are doing something different between the two panels to 'dumb down' this spec for the M Series. Perhaps the 'off' ldzs of the M Series are not brought down as nearly of an 'OFF' state as the P Series... In any case, it is difficult to understand what this will end up meaning until the black leve/shadow detail/lack of blooming of the two panels can be assessed.



I'm looking for a 65" panel, and 4K is secondary to me. I certainly would not pay an additional $700 for 4K alone, and until the M finally comes out and we understand what features it is offering, I'm not sure if I will want the M or would rather hold off (and wait) for the P.


The 24fps Pure Cinema Mode and 120Hz High Velocity Mode would be nice, but if the M does not support those features, that would not be a deal breaker for me.


So from what I am seeing, only if the black levels/shadow detail/lack of blooming of the P Series with 64 ldzs is much better than the M Series with 32 ldzs would I consider spending an additional $700 (or 50%) for the P Series over the M Series...


And if neither of these panels end up delivering the kind of local dimming performance I am seeking, I guess I'll just have to see what the Reference Series delivers...


-fafrd
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
What a difference 2 weeks makes



Since it now appears highly unlikely that the Vizio Reference Series is going to make it out this year (and is much more likely to materialize as a new product line in 2015), the M and the P look like they will be the only products to emerge in 2014 (in addition to the E-Series which is largely already out).


So I've come to the conclusion that if I want to get a new TV this year as a 'placeholder' for another year or two while we see what happens with OLED and as the standards for HDR and 4K content stabilize and hopefully materialize, it's going to be one of these two TVs from Vizio. It's also more solidly rumored now that the M Series will emerge in May and the P Series in August.


I'm not particularly motivated by 4K at this stage, so local dimming performance (and specifically good dark-level and shadow detail without distracting blooming) will be the most important factor in determining whether the M is a keeper for me or I want to wait for the P. Also, having dug into the specs a bit deeper, I have a better understanding of the ways in which the P is likely to vary from the M. Here's a recap of my current understanding/expectation:


Specification____________M-Series______P-Series

Release Date___________May 2014_____August 2014

Resolution______________1080p _______4K (UHDTV)

Native Refresh__________120Hz________120Hz

Clear Action Rate________720Hz________960Hz

Backlight Brightness____350-450 Nits____400_600 Nits

Effective Refresh Rate__160-360Hz______240-480Hz

Local Dimming Zones_____32 (8Vx4H)____64 (8Vx8H)

24fps Cinema Mode______yes?__________yes

48fps Cinema Mode______yes?__________yes

Active Pixel Tuning_______yes___________yes

High Velocity Mode_______no?___________yes

Contrast_______________20M:1_________50M:1



As already stated, the larger number of dimming zones in the P Series should allow for some improvement in blacks/shadow detail/lack of blooming, but 32 and 64 are both a small number of local dimming zones (compared tot he Sharp Elite with over 200 ldzs or the Vizio Reference Series with 384 ldzs), so it is unclear how different the performance of these two panels will be. Said another way, if Vizio has discovered some new 'secret sauce' (such as Active Pixel Tuning, for example) to greatly improve local dimming performance with only 64 ldzs, there is a good chance that much of that same improvement would also be visible with half the number of ldzs...


Letterbox bars for widescreen movies should be completely blacked out on both the M and the P, but when viewing 4:3 content, the P should deliver completely black letterbox bars while the M will not be able to (not a big deal to me, bit an advantage of 8V x 8H dimming zones versus 8V x 4H dimming zones.


We don't yet know what the brightness of the backlights in these to lines will be, which will end up determining how the 'Clear Action Rate' translates into actual motion blur reduction. It is very unlikely that the M Series will reduce the current backlight brightness of 350 Nits on 2013 products and between the 'factor of 3' that they have hinted at through the Clear Action Rate spec of 720Hz, I believe they may increase the backscreen brightness of the 2014 M Series to 33% more than the 2014 E-Series, which would mean 450 Nits, so that is how I arrived at a range of 350-450 Nits for the M. For the P Series, I doubt it will have a less bright Backlight than the 2013 M-Series and the Clear Action Rate of 960Hz they have hinted at implies they may increase backlight brightness of the P Series to double the brightness of the E-Series, hence the 350-600 Nit range I arrived at. (Also, since the R Series has 800 Nits and the E Series has 300 Nits, a progression of [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] Nits makes sense from a lineup progression point of view.


The brightness of the backlight only really impacts the Effective Refresh Rate these TVs actually deliver (which is almost certainly lower than the Clear Action Rate they specify as the image would be too dim at those true action rates. I've put the range of Effective Refresh Rates that correspond to the backlight brightness range I have assumed. In any case, both of these panels should perform at least as well as the 2013M Series in terms of Effective Refresh Rate and motion blur reduction (and will hopefully perform better, with the P hopefully delivering twice the performance of the 2013 M Series if it does get the 600 Nit backlight I am hoping for).


The P Series supports a native 24fps/48fps 'Pure Cinema Mode' and with a 120Hz native panel and a scanning backlight, the M Series could support this same 24fps/48fps true Cinema Mode, but it is unclear if the M will offer this feature or if it has been held back for a 'dumbing down' marketing strategy. The 2013 M Series supported a 'Film Mode' so hopefully this was a true 24fps/48fps Cinema Mode and it will continue to be supported...


The P Series explicitly lists a 120Hz 'High Velocity Mode' for gaming which should also be a feature that can be supported by the M Series panel, but since no mention is made of it, it may have been held back for a 'dumbing down' marketing strategy.


The contrast of the P Series is supposedly 50 million to 1 versus the M with 'only' 20 million to 1, so it would appear that they are doing something different between the two panels to 'dumb down' this spec for the M Series. Perhaps the 'off' ldzs of the M Series are not brought down as nearly of an 'OFF' state as the P Series... In any case, it is difficult to understand what this will end up meaning until the black leve/shadow detail/lack of blooming of the two panels can be assessed. In the case that the backlight brightness is affecting this spec, it may indicate that the backlight of the P Series is as much as 250% the brightness of the (though it would surprise me if the P were that much brighter than the M, since even if the M were only 300 Nits like the E, that would put the P at 750Nits very close to the R Series at 800 Nits...).



Knowing that the R Series is unlikely to materialize this year and that the P will not be out until August, I'm starting to lean towards picking up an M Series in May. If it has noticeable blooming I can return in and try a P Series 4 months later in the hope that the additional dimming zones makes any blooming more palatable, and if the M with only 32 zones does a good-enough job delivering blacks and shadow detail without too much blooming, I can live with that for a year or two while HDR technology and low-cost Elite-like FALD LED/LCDs continue to mature...


-fafrd
 

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I'm considering the Vizio but no way would I get the mid tier M series. Looks like the P series is the sweet spot according to the specs. Let's wait to see if they can deliver the goods.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigwali  /t/1515651/comparing-2014-vizio-m-series-and-p-series#post_24362888


I'm considering the Vizio but no way would I get the mid tier M series. Looks like the P series is the sweet spot according to the specs. Let's wait to see if they can deliver the goods.

If you want 4K resolution, for sure. If you want to wait for the Vizio Reference Series or OLED to become affordable, the only way I would justify spending another 50% on a 'placeholder TV is if the local dimming performance of the P Series is noticeably superior to the M Series.,..


But I agree, the P Series seems to be well designed based on its specs. Just not sure I can wait 'til August...


-fafrd
 

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I don't think August is about right .. Vizio will be missing up the shootout !!

Where the R series will stand out by this year !!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigwali  /t/1515651/comparing-2014-vizio-m-series-and-p-series/0_100#post_24362888


I'm considering the Vizio but no way would I get the mid tier M series. Looks like the P series is the sweet spot according to the specs. Let's wait to see if they can deliver the goods.

I'm in the other boat. I think the M series is perfect for what I want. Size, local dimming, and a reasonable (apparent) release date in Spring of this year. Whoot!
 

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I'm sorry to say this fafrd but it seems that you have joined the LED/LCD Sales Force, just as the Great and Good Artwood warned us was happening on AVS.


His prophecies on the true role of AVS in the future of WorldWide TV domination by the Forces of Mediocre Darkness and Transient Motion Artefacts has come true.


And that's not even mentioning the Misery of the Non-Centrally Viewing Placed Dis-Enfranchised Outcasts.


Help us Artwood....help us !!
 

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^^ No idea what all of that was suppose to mean.
^^
 

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fafrd;

Since you appear to be the Vizio guy, have you tried to obtain a Vizio service manual for any Vizio TV or have you seen any listed anywhere? The 2nd question; what have you seen regarding repair parts availably for Vizio?


Just how much 4k material is available now anyway? Seems more marketing than anything else.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by catonic  /t/1515651/comparing-2014-vizio-m-series-and-p-series#post_24364506


I'm sorry to say this fafrd but it seems that you have joined the LED/LCD Sales Force, just as the Great and Good Artwood warned us was happening on AVS.


His prophecies on the true role of AVS in the future of WorldWide TV domination by the Forces of Mediocre Darkness and Transient Motion Artefacts has come true.


And that's not even mentioning the Misery of the Non-Centrally Viewing Placed Dis-Enfranchised Outcasts.


Help us Artwood....help us !!

I'm ready to be beamed up to the SS-OLEDerprise when it finally arrives, but until then, I guess I am officially a part of the dark force (especially since returning my Panasonic ZT60 after only having it a week)!!!


-fafrd
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by videobruce  /t/1515651/comparing-2014-vizio-m-series-and-p-series#post_24364533

fafrd;

Since you appear to be the Vizio guy, have you tried to obtain a Vizio service manual for any Vizio TV or have you seen any listed anywhere? The 2nd question; what have you seen regarding repair parts availably for Vizio?


Just how much 4k material is available now anyway? Seems more marketing than anything else.

Well, not sure I'd say a 'a Vizio guy' let alone the Vizio guy, but I am excited about the product lineup they are introducing this year. Never owned a Vizio and never would have even considered them before this year. But I want a new, bigger LED/LCD and it has to be full-array, so Sony, Toshiba and Vizio appear to be the only games in town for me.


So I've been tracking the developments and analyzing the specs as closely as I can to try to figure out if the Vizio FALD panels (M and P) will be 'for real' or not and how they will perform.


So I don't know anything about repair parts - you should probably ask about that on a Vizio owners thread - though I have to say, I've never had to repair my LG LED/LCD and I'm not sure 'availability of repair parts' is a factor that would ever influence my buying decision one way or another. If you are concerned about repairs, buy an extended warranty - these TVs are not automobiles...


And in terms of service manuals, same resppnse - probably more effective to ask on one of the Vizio owner's threads.


Sorry I couldn't be more helpful,


-fafrd
 

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Thank you for this thread.  I am having the same dilemma.  

 

I also do not have any interest in UHD.  I just want the better HD picture.

 

Looks like I might be stuck with a 13 inch television in my living room for a few months.
 

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Quote:
I've never had to repair my LG LED/LCD and I'm not sure 'availability of repair parts' is a factor that would ever influence my buying decision one way or another.
No offense, but it really should. Apparently too many others seem to feel the same way. "Do you feel lucky"?



Though reliable, things can go wrong. Smaller sets (under say 32") aren't a huge deal, but above 50" which is just about everything that is discussed in this sub-forum would be no picnic if it had to be shipped back. Considering the obsession of throwing out the box & manual with everything from a $300 TV to a $5,000 piece of test equipment, if you have no authorized service center in your area and the set dies, then what?

Now, regarding parts etc. if this is true about them not having parts, how does one repair these? The apparent solution is to give the customer another set, probably not new that was returned for some other reason that may or may not have any problems. There are enough so called Amazon review (usually one star) horror stories about sets that went south for one reason or another and customer service problems. Waiting weeks and months for the manufacture to return a phone call or e-mail.


My point is, without readably service literature and parts and/or local qualified service, no matter how good a set is, one should consider this in their decision tp purchase that brand. I'm not referring to just Vizio. The worse offenders are Westinghouse, Polaroid & RCA (for starters). All just names from the past.


Food for thought. (BTW, I do have two smaller Vizio's; 22" & 39")
 

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Ironically I asked a similar question in the Seki thread and here is the response;
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrEastSide  /t/1517705/seiki-to-release-inexpensive-55-to-85-pro-4k-tvs#post_24368540


Although, I don't have a source, I have read this a few times on these forums, but it was a year or two ago. Someone in one of the Vizio threads had his TV die, it was a couple months out of warranty, Maybe 14 or so months old and Vizio wouldn't repair it under warranty. So he asked if he could send it to a shop and pay for the repairs himself. He was told it was not possible as Vizio doesn't keep spare parts on hand. So not only would they not help him, he couldn't even choose to pay for a repair himself because there were no replacement parts. Basically, he had to junk his one year old TV. That's what always turned me off from Vizio. They usually get all of their TV components from the cheapest seller and make a certain model TV, which is how they keep their costs down.

The flip side is, no spare parts. I've seen several people in threads mention this and mention when their TV did happen to die under warranty, Vizio would replace it with a different model, not repair it. This was a couple years ago, though. Things may be different now. I've noticed this mentioned by a few different Vizio owners over the last couple of years.
Again, it's not a jab towards Vizio.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Solarius  /t/1515651/comparing-2014-vizio-m-series-and-p-series#post_24369036


Just reposting this from the Vizio 2014 CES shootout thread. According to the linked article, which sources the WSJ, the reference series will be available in Q4.


I'm personally waiting.

http://www.flatpanelshd.com/news.php?subaction=showfull&id=1392627358


Also it sounds like getting an extended warranty on these sets is wise.

The article says it is impossible to make the Vizio 120" overseas. They need to be made onsite. Quoted “We have many big projects in the U.S. coming up” .
 

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The only reason why i don't want to go with the P series is that i'm afraid 720p & 1080p content will look worse when being upscaled to the P's 4k resolution Vs the M's 1080p....

I hope this isn't the case, because i'd rather fork out the extra cash and get the benifits of the P series.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaveBoy  /t/1515651/comparing-2014-vizio-m-series-and-p-series#post_24427882


The only reason why i don't want to go with the P series is that i'm afraid 720p & 1080p content will look worse when being upscaled to the P's 4k resolution Vs the M's 1080p....

I hope this isn't the case, because i'd rather fork out the extra cash and get the benifits of the P series.

very unlikely... the worst-case upscaling should effective match the 1080p image (each single pixel turned into a block of 2x2 pixels...)


-fafrd
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fafrd  /t/1515651/comparing-2014-vizio-m-series-and-p-series#post_24427895


very unlikely... the worst-case upscaling should effective match the 1080p image (each single pixel turned into a block of 2x2 pixels...)


-fafrd

KOF who usually posts in the plasma forum said the opposite which has scared me off from any 4k set.

too many conflicting opinions. :p


Funny enough, i remember Wii games looking a little sharper/clearer running on my older 42" LG LK450 1080p LCD in Native 4:3 than it did on my CRT....Progressive scan also lends a hand at improving PQ, but perhaps it's also because of the cleaner/crisper nature of LCD/LED and the fact that it's digital display. I guess if the TV's scaler is good enough, there shouldn't be any real noticable difference in upscaling? As long as it can display that native resolution, which wasn't the case on these 'fixed' 720p LCD's and plasma's.


One would think though that a smaller resolution being blown up to a larger resolution WOULD result in a blown up softer looking picture...
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Short update on pricing.


The 60" 2014 M Series has been priced at $1200 and the 60" P Series has been priced at $1800.


The Sharp 60" LC60SQ15U is a pseudo-direct competitor of the 60" P Series, and while this panel has an MSRP of $2400, discounts to $2000 are widely available with increasingly frequent reports of discounts to as low as $1700 for this edge-lit 1080p+/4K- panel...


So it seems pretty clear that Sharp intends to undercut the pricing f the Vizio P series with their SQ line of lower-end 1080+/4K- panels while the higher-end UQ line (with THX Certification and Super Bright panel) still commands a premium of $400-500 above that level...


It will be interesting to see how the 64-zone FALD performance of the Vizio P series compares to the edge-lit performance of the Sharp panels.


-fafrd
 
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