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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've read so much that I figured I would take the risk and just ask at the expense of being told all the info is in the forums.

I know and trust me I've read so much but most answers feel like there's tribal knowledge that's being assumed one already knows. Is anyone willing to just dumb down for me when or why i would need certain electronics?

I currently have a Denon x3700h, I have 2 rf7 ii for L/r, a rc64 ii for center, 2 infinity rs152 surrounds, 2 infinity r162 for backs.

How do I know if I NEED an amp on top of the power the AVR is providing?
If I get an AMP do I then need a pre-amp?
- what does the tree look like in this case? AVR to pre-amp to Amp to speakers?
Many amps seem to have their own knobs for bass, trebble, etc, does introducing an amp bypass the auto calibration of the AVR? (audessy)
What would a processor do here if I have an AVR?
- honestly wth is a processor for?

It feels like the AVR is like all of these things in one but just doesn't offer the power that some of the amps offer. So would it just be safe to go with an AVR and an amp?

thanks for the help.
 

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I've read so much that I figured I would take the risk and just ask at the expense of being told all the info is in the forums.

I know and trust me I've read so much but most answers feel like there's tribal knowledge that's being assumed one already knows. Is anyone willing to just dumb down for me when or why i would need certain electronics?

I currently have a Denon x3700h, I have 2 rf7 ii for L/r, a rc64 ii for center, 2 infinity rs152 surrounds, 2 infinity r162 for backs.

How do I know if I NEED an amp on top of the power the AVR is providing?
If I get an AMP do I then need a pre-amp?
- what does the tree look like in this case? AVR to pre-amp to Amp to speakers?
Many amps seem to have their own knobs for bass, trebble, etc, does introducing an amp bypass the auto calibration of the AVR? (audessy)
What would a processor do here if I have an AVR?
- honestly wth is a processor for?

It feels like the AVR is like all of these things in one but just doesn't offer the power that some of the amps offer. So would it just be safe to go with an AVR and an amp?

thanks for the help.
Hi,

If your room is large and your listening distance is far away and your speakers are low efficiency (insensitive) then you may need more power for listening levels.

There's no magic to it. Take the easy known variables and plug them in here:


Put the sensitivity of your main two speakers (front L & R).
Tell it you have 2 speakers for this purpose.
Put in the max rating continous watts of your receiver in.
They're likely near a wall, so say yes to that.
Put in your listening distance.
Calculate.

Refer to the table below the calc. If it's going over 75db, it's loud. If it's going to 85db or more, it's already movie theater level loud. And if it's going over 105db, you're getting into too loud territory and you shouldn't be lsitening this loud. But if it's capable of getting this loud, or louder, this is your headroom, ie, how much more volume you can achieve on your system so that if a moment in a movie/song calls for a peak louder volume, it will have the headroom to get there.

Odds are, you have way beyond plenty of power for your setup. Klipsch are generally sensitive speakers. Your RF7 II's are huge woofers with a big cabinet volume, they're rated to be very, very sensitive at 101db (this is likely super generous, maybe closer to 95~98db in reality?) at 8ohm. Plug that sensitivity into the calc above and you probably need 1 watt or less to get completely loud with these things. This is literally one of the benefits of going big on a cabinet and set of woofers, to get efficiency so that you can get loud without needing gobs of power.

If you can't get over that 75db hump with some headroom left over, with the calcs, and your space is larger than 3000 cubic feet in volume, then you probably do need more power (enter the 200 watt amp tier). But keep this in mind. When you double your wattage, you only get +3 db approximately. So you'd need 10x the wattage to double your perceived volume. This is why it's virtually silly, from a volume perspective, to go from a 105 watt receiver (assuming you actually ever got this output, max volume, pushed to the limits and only barely getting 75db levels SPL) to a 210 watt power amp would get you..... +3 db. 420watts gets you to +6db and 840~1000 watts finally gets you closer to that +10db range, or twice the perceived volume. Guess how much a 800+ watt monoblock costs. Yea, forget this. This is why it's not worth pining over needing gobs of power. Instead, get sensitive speakers. And good news, you have very sensitive speakers. So you don't need a dedicated amp most likely, even with a huge room!

Your X3700H is your processor and pre-amp and amplifier, all in one. If you use the pre-amp outputs to output a line level signal to an external discreet power amplifier, then your X3700H is acting as the processor and pre-amp (often called a pre-pro) and you can turn off the internal amplifier and use the external amplifier. Your X3700H is the processor. So adding another processor, does nothing, and is duplicating things, so its not necessary. The processor is what will decode and process a signal to become discrete channels, such as surround sound, or add effects. The processor is how 0's and 1's from your digital media become 11 channels of discrete audio for positioning effects, synchronized to your video. It takes those 0's and 1's and turns them into sine waves and on top of that, it turns them into discrete separate sine waves meant for discrete separate channels, again, as surround and panning and directional audio for your media. It also does this when it takes a stereo signal with only two channels and processes it via upsampling to become multi-channel so that you can enjoy your legacy stereo content as surround sound (upmixer, emulation, etc).

Your AVR does everything. It's truly your best friend.

You don't need power amps for your setup most likely. But if you did, you have a receiver (processor and pre-amp) that will allow you to expand into that. But again, you don't need it, you have very efficient speakers. So again, unless you have an enormous space and need super loud at a very far listening distance, you probably are not even beginning to tap into the power your AVR's amplifier(s) can deliver because you have efficient speakers!

Sleep well! You're set! ☕ :whistle:

Very best,
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hi,

If your room is large and your listening distance is far away and your speakers are low efficiency (insensitive) then you may need more power for listening levels.

There's no magic to it. Take the easy known variables and plug them in here:


Put the sensitivity of your main two speakers (front L & R).
Tell it you have 2 speakers for this purpose.
Put in the max rating continous watts of your receiver in.
They're likely near a wall, so say yes to that.
Put in your listening distance.
Calculate.

Refer to the table below the calc. If it's going over 75db, it's loud. If it's going to 85db or more, it's already movie theater level loud. And if it's going over 105db, you're getting into too loud territory and you shouldn't be lsitening this loud. But if it's capable of getting this loud, or louder, this is your headroom, ie, how much more volume you can achieve on your system so that if a moment in a movie/song calls for a peak louder volume, it will have the headroom to get there.

Odds are, you have way beyond plenty of power for your setup. Klipsch are generally sensitive speakers. Your RF7 II's are huge woofers with a big cabinet volume, they're rated to be very, very sensitive at 101db (this is likely super generous, maybe closer to 95~98db in reality?) at 8ohm. Plug that sensitivity into the calc above and you probably need 1 watt or less to get completely loud with these things. This is literally one of the benefits of going big on a cabinet and set of woofers, to get efficiency so that you can get loud without needing gobs of power.

If you can't get over that 75db hump with some headroom left over, with the calcs, and your space is larger than 3000 cubic feet in volume, then you probably do need more power (enter the 200 watt amp tier). But keep this in mind. When you double your wattage, you only get +3 db approximately. So you'd need 10x the wattage to double your perceived volume. This is why it's virtually silly, from a volume perspective, to go from a 105 watt receiver (assuming you actually ever got this output, max volume, pushed to the limits and only barely getting 75db levels SPL) to a 210 watt power amp would get you..... +3 db. 420watts gets you to +6db and 840~1000 watts finally gets you closer to that +10db range, or twice the perceived volume. Guess how much a 800+ watt monoblock costs. Yea, forget this. This is why it's not worth pining over needing gobs of power. Instead, get sensitive speakers. And good news, you have very sensitive speakers. So you don't need a dedicated amp most likely, even with a huge room!

Your X3700H is your processor and pre-amp and amplifier, all in one. If you use the pre-amp outputs to output a line level signal to an external discreet power amplifier, then your X3700H is acting as the processor and pre-amp (often called a pre-pro) and you can turn off the internal amplifier and use the external amplifier. Your X3700H is the processor. So adding another processor, does nothing, and is duplicating things, so its not necessary. The processor is what will decode and process a signal to become discrete channels, such as surround sound, or add effects. The processor is how 0's and 1's from your digital media become 11 channels of discrete audio for positioning effects, synchronized to your video. It takes those 0's and 1's and turns them into sine waves and on top of that, it turns them into discrete separate sine waves meant for discrete separate channels, again, as surround and panning and directional audio for your media. It also does this when it takes a stereo signal with only two channels and processes it via upsampling to become multi-channel so that you can enjoy your legacy stereo content as surround sound (upmixer, emulation, etc).

Your AVR does everything. It's truly your best friend.

You don't need power amps for your setup most likely. But if you did, you have a receiver (processor and pre-amp) that will allow you to expand into that. But again, you don't need it, you have very efficient speakers. So again, unless you have an enormous space and need super loud at a very far listening distance, you probably are not even beginning to tap into the power your AVR's amplifier(s) can deliver because you have efficient speakers!

Sleep well! You're set! ☕ :whistle:

Very best,
Wow. Honestly, thank you for this. I didnt think i needed more i just wasnt sure if i was somehow missing out on something by not giving them more. But yeah i wouldnt consider the room im in very big (13'x19') and it all sounds amazing. Thank you again, this really helps.

with the money you just saved me i'm going to buy the RF7 iii with the center to match and move the 7iis to the back.
 

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The simplest explosion of the modules are: Sources --> Preamp --> Power Amp --> Spkrs.

Many amps seem to have their own knobs for bass, trebble, etc,
Collectively these are called TONE CONTROLS and is often found in the Preamp Module.

does introducing an amp bypass the auto calibration of the AVR? (audessy)
Doesn't bypass because everything is connected one after another, in a serial, one-lane-highway fashion, although many Preamps have a DIRECT mode which bypasses, internally, all/most adjustment, for stereophiles.

The calibration, or Room Correction is also in the Preamp module.

What would a processor do here if I have an AVR?
- honestly wth is a processor for?
The purest definition of PROCESSOR is, its primary function, to DECODE SURROUND audio formats.

Or you can think of the PROCESSOR as the BRAIN of the whole thing. The Processor is contained within the Preamp module.

missing out on something
Just like an insurance salesman whose job is to scare you, if u don't do this, you will be hit by a bus tomorrow, is your job to find out whether what they are saying has enough truth for you to open ur wallet. In the AV business, be honest what your eyes can see and ears can hear.
 

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I've read so much that I figured I would take the risk and just ask at the expense of being told all the info is in the forums.

I know and trust me I've read so much but most answers feel like there's tribal knowledge that's being assumed one already knows. Is anyone willing to just dumb down for me when or why i would need certain electronics?

I currently have a Denon x3700h, I have 2 rf7 ii for L/r, a rc64 ii for center, 2 infinity rs152 surrounds, 2 infinity r162 for backs.

How do I know if I NEED an amp on top of the power the AVR is providing?
If I get an AMP do I then need a pre-amp?
- what does the tree look like in this case? AVR to pre-amp to Amp to speakers?
Many amps seem to have their own knobs for bass, trebble, etc, does introducing an amp bypass the auto calibration of the AVR? (audessy)
What would a processor do here if I have an AVR?
- honestly wth is a processor for?

It feels like the AVR is like all of these things in one but just doesn't offer the power that some of the amps offer. So would it just be safe to go with an AVR and an amp?
eit
thanks for the help.
Don't worry about DACs, processors and amps at this point as that is just putting the cart in front of the horse.

The best place to start is understanding how much juice your speaker system needs to either reach the loudest peaks you would ever want to reach or the highest sustained SPL you would want from your speakers in your room at your MLP. Here is a practical approach you can take which should help you learn and understand how and why.

You will need to know the efficiency of your speakers in terms of 1 Watt output SPL at 1 meter...should be in your speaker "specs". You will need to know the volume you want to achieve from your speakers in your room as they are set-up. I recommend you put on some of your favorite music at the loudest volume you would ever want to hear it and take a c-weighted volume measurement from your MLP. You will also need to know the Watts RMS output of your AVR (most will only provide output into two channels, so actual approximations will be according to the number of channels you are driving and that is not always accurate because of how different AVRs process and route power to all the channels being used in a system....but don't worry about that just yet as what is most important to know and understand is how much power it takes to drive your L/C/R to your desired levels. Once you get those pieces of the puzzle, below I've linked a good calculator and accompanying article. You can plug your numbers into the calculator and come up with what I've found to be a fairly accurate tool (more accurate than quite a few other tools I've used) .

Generally, but not always, most AVR's have all the power most folks will ever need.....but there are systems where speakers may need more power to play louder for multiple reasons...ie, less efficient speakers, a large room. or some folks just really want really LOUD systems. Read the article, play with the calculator a little and ask any questions you may have.
 
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