[Trip in VA]

If this is in the wrong place, mods, please move.


I want to know what the best kind of cable is for component video.


Thanks!


- Trip

 

[Greg_R]

Belden 1694A or 7710A (which is a bundled version of the 1694A) w/ Canare RCAP RCA terminations. Techflex & Heatshrink if you want it to look pretty. Canare V-5CFB is another option for the cable.


These cables are used in hidef broadcast situations with runs over 500ft long. Rhino Cables and Blue Jeans Cable are two companies that will build you a cable of the length you choose. You can also buy the crimp dies and tools and make it yourself (Markertek and Parts Express sell the parts).

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

If you want "boutique" (in this case, cable and connectors designed and measure 75 ohm end to end on a Time Delay Reflectometer, using proprietary cabling and connectors whether F, RCA and BNC) (boutique meaning since its not mass produced like Belden and Canare, it will cost lots more - but at least its properly designed and works as it should, unlike many boutique cables which aren't TDRed and if you measure them you will all too often find all sorts of variation from 75 ohm),

http://www.graniteaudio.com/video/index.html

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6&pagenumber=1


The retail prices are quite expensive, however, if you contact me I can tell you how to get a much better deal. I do use these cables throughout my system.


The connectors are all one piece 75 ohm. The cable has high bandwith, to 3 GB, yet is as thin or thinner than Belden's RG59 cables. Very sturdy, thin and strong cable with solid connectors that will make a solid connection even with the flimsy connectors we all too often find consumer HD receivers.


Video guru Mike Parker was impressed by these cables. Ask him.

 

[Glimmie]

Quote:

Originally posted by Greg_R Belden 1694A or 7710A (which is a bundled version of the 1694A) w/ Canare RCAP RCA terminations. Techflex & Heatshrink if you want it to look pretty. Canare V-5CFB is another option for the cable. These cables are used in hidef broadcast situations with runs over 500ft long. Rhino Cables and Blue Jeans Cable are two companies that will build you a cable of the length you choose. You can also buy the crimp dies and tools and make it yourself (Markertek and Parts Express sell the parts).

I'll second this advice. If you want broadcast quality, just use what broadcast and transfer facilities use. Belden 1694A or the Canare equilivant is excellent for long analog runs to your projector. For 6 foot or less runs, Radio Shack video cables are fine, even for HDTV.


As for the Granite Audio cables, I don't know who's cable stock they are using but it's probably a Belden 1505A equilivant. That's 1694A's little brother. Good stuff, just a bit more loss and only a problem at over 200 feet. The price matrix shows $1000 for a 2 meter (6 feet) 3 coax set. If you want to spend that, go ahead. I however can think of other goodies to buy for that kind of money.


Oh and as for 75ohm connectors. Yeah that's a good idea. I'm sure the RCA connectors on your equipment are equally superior as well as impedance controlled PC board traces. NOT! So that expensive 75ohm RCA connector on the cable isn't going to make a hint of improvement when plugged into a crappy RCA jack. Impedance matching is just that, a match. You don't get a benefit from a "proper" plug mated to a shoddy jack. It's both or nothing.

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

From the Granite Audio website:


"MODEL #420 INTERCONNECT


FOR VIDEO & DIGITAL-AUDIO


3.01 GHz Bandwidth


This ultra-high-performance Micro-75 series cable has both 100% Bonded Foil and 96% Braid Shielding for the ultimate in crystal-clear performance, even in the longer lengths required in modern custom home theater systems.


The #420 meets SMPTE 292M Broadcast Digital Standards (SDI) and delivers 1.51Gb/s HDTV brilliant quality signals up to 215 feet, and has an Extended Bandwidth of 3.01GHz. The characteristic impedance is 75 ohms, +1.6 ohms, and this new AV cable is available with one-piece 75 ohm RCA, BNC, or F connectors with an impressive High Return Loss of >34dB @ 1.2GHz.


The #420 is engineered to deliver all the high-resolution picture and sound quality of your original DVD, D-VHS, HD Receiver, or CD source with full rich signal response and the blackest possible background."


Granite Audio isn't using to my knowledge anyone else's cable stock - its a cable designed by Granite Audio and its own team (which includes a video engineer of more than thirty years who has tweaked his own CRTs and even stacked them for years and who has done telecine transfers some years ago, manufactured video slot machines, etc.). This cables specs are not those of any Belden or Canare cables that I'm aware of - and I asked Mike Parker about this, as Mike has worked the pro side for some years, and he indicated that he didn't think this was anyone else's cable, stock, either.


But seriously, generally Glimmie is right on, and you won't go wrong listening to him. But I think the Granite Cables are even better, but it is for a price. I've had both Belden and Canare cabling in my system and I'm happy being granitized.

 

[Glimmie]

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bruzonsky From the Granite Audio website: The #420 meets SMPTE 292M Broadcast Digital Standards (SDI) and delivers 1.51Gb/s HDTV brilliant quality signals up to 215 feet, and has an Extended Bandwidth of 3.01GHz. The characteristic impedance is 75 ohms, +1.6 ohms, and this new AV cable is available with one-piece 75 ohm RCA, BNC, or F connectors with an impressive High Return Loss of >34dB @ 1.2GHz.

This however, true or not, has nothing to do with the home theater side of things.


SMPTE292 is the serial digital interface standard uncompressed HDTV uses in a professional enviornment. This signal is not found in home theater applications. Furthermore, a cable that passes 1.5gbs may not be a good analog cable at DC to 50mhz. SMPTE259 for 480i signals is becoming very popular in high end scalers being fed with DVD players. but that's about the limit for broadcast spec serial digital video in comsumer applications today.


While we are on the digital side, a poor cable has no effect on classic analog parameters such as brightness, chroma saturation, black levels, etc. A poor cable will introduce errors which result in white sparkles in the displayed image or in extreme cases a solid color field or random noise similar to a TV tuned to a dead channel. Let's not start another pointless thread on how this cable in a digital transmission mode makes a brighter picture than that cable. We had a long discussion about that using SDI output on DVD players in another thread. The concensus was that it's a placebo effect. When it comes to the two SMPTE digital video specifications, 292 and 259, there is a scrambling system to insure a DC free signal to makke clock recovery possible. This in turn means a single bit error will not knock a a data byte up or down a few points, it means complete loss of that word.


The frequency band of interest in analog HDTV connections is DC to 60mhz. Your cable and switching equipment must be flat only in that pass band. Peformance beyond that is of no benefit.

 

[FrantzM]

I must confess that for video I have not yet seen the benefits of the ultra-expensive cables either: with an Hitachi 57 SWX20 and D-VHS as the HDTV source, I have so far failed to notice any differences compared to Belden cables; as a precautionary measure I simply use Canare 75 Ohms connectors to terminate the cables, I did not care to verify the performance with non-75 Ohms connectors. My tests were far from scientific and I do not have (yet) access to a better display system (thinking a lot about the Marantz 12S2 which I have seen last year at the CES 2003


Frantz

Port-au-Prince, Haiti

 

[odyssey]

Glimmie,


You have to give Steve credit, and I really mean this in a very complementary sense. Many people don’t have the intellectual flexibility and honesty to realize that they were mistaken about something and change course…not about something that seemed as unshakeable as Steve’s belief about cables.


I was impressed when Steve described the TDR tests in Arizona and his realization that some of the most expensive designer video cables that he previously thought produced fantastic images had the worst performance. At least he has gone from MIT, Transparent and some others that are not only insanely expensive, but actually screw up the video; to Wireworld and Granite which are still very expensive, but also have very good performance.


Belden and Canare are still better overall choices.

 

[Steve Bruzonsky]

Odyssey, thank you. My "Tweaking" ODYSSEY is now pretty much over, unless it doesn't cost me anything, like moving my subs. HHAAAA!


And I give GLIMMIE much credit for lotsa objective knowledge and sane good advise.


If the Granite Audio video cables were put out by say Belden, being as thin and outstanding performing both subjective and objective, I think they would be big, big sellers. But its sorta different when you're a small hunk of granite on the big block and the margins just ain't there for something so custom designed and costly for a small manufacturer to have spun and buy from the mill by the spool.

 

[Dizzman]

I personally would love to see a forum here about cables... Seperated of course for audio and video... (Lets just call them the PFM forum and the objective science forum.)


There is so much bogus info out there that lets people make decisions that are just plain wrong.


Even that granite stuff... I work at extron and from what i can tell about the granite specs (totally lacking on the analog side of things, no attenuation numbers) they are using cable that is similar to (but lower in overall performance) to like glimmie said, 1694, or many others out there that are equivalent. As well from looking at it, i am pretty sure that it is not quite 75 ohm. maybe 73 or so. The cable diameter being smaller than the connector causes this in alot of cases. Of course i could be off here.


The bigger point is that these cable cost an end user somewhere between 1-3 dollars a foot. connectors are about 1-2 dollars, and labour, lets say 50 bucks to put the whole thing together... a ten foot component would be about 150$, add a markup of 75$ to the whole thing... do you get the picture.


Take any of these cables and measure them on a TDR and on a Network analyzer... YOu will keep coming back to cables WITHOUT the solid gold unobtanium.

 

[Glimmie]

Quote:

Originally posted by Dizzman Even that granite stuff... I work at extron and from what i can tell about the granite specs (totally lacking on the analog side of things, no attenuation numbers)

I noted that too. They are hung up on TDR measurments. This is backwards. Typically a cable sample is swept. If there are bumps in the response, then TDR it. If the response is flat within the desired frequency band, I guarentee you a TDR will look good as well. I too would like to see their specs. How much capacitance per foot. What is the attentuation at typical frequency markers, 1, 10, 100, 1000mhz?


I would like to see a block diagram of their test setup.

 

[Don Hoglund]

Granite Audio Micro-75 cables are a proprietary design. Please keep in mind that we only sell finished terminated custom cables. We don't sell bulk cable and so there is much more to consider when buying our cables than just the specifications of the bulk wire. Of course the wire specs are important, especially in longer lengths and at higher bandwidths as already noted in this thread. But, since our cables are terminated, the quality of the termination is also a major factor in the value of our cables.


Our unique 1-piece terminations are super quality. We have yet to have a termination failure. That's quality.


All our Micro-75 cables are hand terminated with true 75 ohm connectors by someone who is an expert at doing it right. Each finished cable is then hand tested on a Tektronix 7S12 TDR. Then a photograph is taken of the TDR screen, printed on photo paper, and shipped with the finished cable to the customer. Of course we test the master spool before cutting the cables to length. But, testing the finished cable also tests the quality and impedance of the termination. The TDR photo includes the termination test results to show the quality of our terminations. There are many steps in this quality hand termination process that produce our extreme quality custom terminations. Custom handmade products by experienced professionals cost more. This is important because we are selling our cables mostly in the "boutique" market, as Steve calls it. This market is notorious for cables that don't even come close to accepted quality video/digital specifications among industry professionals. To my knowledge, we are the only so-called "boutique" manufacturer that publishes our cable specs, tests each finished cable on an industry standard TDR, and furnishes proof of the test results with each cable. This is exactly the type of objective data that objective engineers have been asking for.


Other cable specs:

Attenuation: dB/100ft

1 MHz .3

10 MHz 1.2

1000 MHz 10.5


My goal and job is to build the best quality products that I can. Yes, they are expensive. And, they are also very reliable, long lasting, honest, attractive, handmade, and give top performance in the best systems for the most demanding customers, like Steve Bruzonsky. ha, ha. That makes them a good value in the long run. When people upgrade, they are upgrading to Granite Audio products much of the time. I'm not trying to sell the most cables. I'm just trying to make the best cables.

 

[Dizzman]

I appreciate what you are saying, but does that mean that if we include a picture of the TDR and the NETWORK ANALYZER sweep that we could charge even more?


I think it is a given that if you are buying high performance cable from a reputable company that the connectors are "TRUE" 75 ohm (as opposed to those fake 75 ohm ones out there.) {i will not even step into the debate about how much it matters in the world of analog video or even SDI}


What is frustrating is trying to tell people what really matters about cables and connectorization and then i see a 15 footer for sale for 600$.


I respect your right to sell cables for their perceived worth, but i have a hard time accepting that there is value there. But in the long run, if people are happy with their purchases, then i guess that is what matters... but it still frustrates me. Especially as a manufacturer that sells the equivalent cable (albeit higher performance) for only 34$ list. As a matter of fact, the first time we get to 600 is with a 100' 5 conductor cable.



C'est la vie

 

[tzucc]

fwiw, I use these new MIT comp video cables that have some termination network on the end. THe picture is phenomonal, definitely better than that provided by monster cable component video.


When it comes to video freq, I am a big believer of cable quality can affect the outcome. WHen it comes to speaker wire or digital interconnect, I am somewhat less inclined to spend huge $s.

These MIT cables were about $300-400...

 

[Glimmie]

Don, let me see if you understand something. You have gone to great legnths to make sure your RCA connectors are 75ohm.


Now what difference does that make at 30mhz? I'll give you a hint. Why doesn't the microwave energy come through that screen on your microwave oven door. After all, it's not solid metal, it has holes in it.


Furthermore, what good does a precision RCA connector make when plugged into a Chinese or Mexican manufactured RCA jack which cost less than a penny in quanties of 10,000?


IMO, there is no point to making precision RCA connectors. That's not just you, even Canare makes such a beast. If you want true 75ohm connectors, use BNC like professionals do. Now I realize that's not pratcical when the equipment has RCA jacks.


And when you get into RF work, even a BNC is considered a poor connector. That's why most good RF equipment uses N conectors. Now that's a precision connector.

 

[Dizzman]

Shall we try to broach the subject that in an analog video system it does not matter if you use a 75 or a 50 ohm connector?


Or is that inviting far too much?

 

[Don Hoglund]

Thanks for your questions and observations. I fully understand what you are saying about the prices. But this price structure is nothing new. The finest things in life are always handmade. Handcraftsmanship offers the ultimate in quality control and the best way to implement the craftsman's skill into the finished product. And that will add to the product's cost and value. The customer decides if it's worth it or not to him.


Small companies vs. big companies.

There are many aspects to the cost of a product.


Manufacturing - quality materials, quality control, craftsmanship, reliability, productivity, economy of scale. Small companies like Granite Audio don't enjoy any economy of scale. Everything we do is small quantity. Belden makes and ships 50 miles of bulk cable per day. They don't have to concern themselves with termination because the end users like you folks do their own terminations. If you put your own sweat equity into any product, of course it's going to cost you less. If I just sold bulk cable and parts, my cables would be much cheaper too. But, my customers don't know how to terminate them correctly. I perform a valuable service by selling a completed cable assembly. I've been making my own cables for 25 years and Granite Audio cables for 8 years. I've never had a cable come apart, fail, or have a termination problem. NEVER. Can any other company make that claim? What is that level of reliable quality worth to you? Will all those cheaper cables still be in one piece 25 years from today? Will the cheaper cables terminated by amateurs give quality performance every single day without failure or loss for 25 years?



Engineering - My cable specs are certainly comparable to Belden's best RG59. Then we did some proprietary engineering of our own to design a cable suited for our specific market of very demanding high-end users with very expensive gear. This engineering cost me big bucks. These costs have to be recovered on a relatively small production volume. Belden spreads their costs over thousands of miles of cables. So, their cables are cheaper per foot because of economy of scale. But, my cables are specially engineered for a small niche market that Belden can't compete in because they're too big of a company. This is the American business system. Big companies and small companies successfully competing side-by-side. I can't do what they do for what they charge. They can't do what I do for what I charge.



Marketing - Granite Audio is competing in the "boutique" cable market. We furnish objective proof with every cable that it meets specs. Yes, it does take extra time and materials to quality TDR test every cable, mark it with a unique serial number, and ship the proof with the cable. But, how else will our demanding customers know they are getting what they paid for and what we're representing? Credibility costs money.



Distribution - Our products cost what they cost to make. The product is then sold to our dealers at cost plus profit margin. The dealers then sell to the end user at their cost plus profit margin. This is the cost of distribution. Distribution costs for small companies and small dealers, who market to a small widely spread out niche customer base are going to be high. Economy of scale applies to distribution as well.



Service - The President of Belden doesn't process your order, terminate your cable order, test your cables, answer your questions, give you his advice, or give you any personal service. If you want or need quality service from the guy at the top, you will want to do business with a smaller company.



So, if you want a quality handcrafted reliable product that has been specially engineered for your unique specialized purposes, comes with objective proof that you're getting what you paid for, and is backed by personal service from the founder of the company; then buy Granite Audio.

 

[Don Hoglund]

Quote:

Originally posted by Glimmie Don, let me see if you understand something. You have gone to great legnths to make sure your RCA connectors are 75ohm. Furthermore, what good does a precision RCA connector make when plugged into a Chinese or Mexican manufactured RCA jack which cost less than a penny in quanties of 10,000?

Glimmie, this is the $20,000+ forum. Some of this gear actually has quality RCA, BNC, and F connectors with quality 75 ohm circuits that will benefit from our quality precision handcrafted cables and terminations.

 

[Glimmie]

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Hoglund Thanks for your questions and observations. I fully understand what you are saying about the prices. But this price structure is nothing new. The finest things in life are always handmade. Handcraftsmanship offers the ultimate in quality control and the best way to implement the craftsman's skill into the finished product. And that will add to the product's cost and value. The customer decides if it's worth it or not to him. Small companies vs. big companies. There are many aspects to the cost of a product. Manufacturing - quality materials, quality control, craftsmanship, reliability, productivity, economy of scale. Small companies like Granite Audio don't enjoy any economy of scale. Everything we do is small quantity. Belden makes and ships 50 miles of bulk cable per day. They don't have to concern themselves with termination because the end users like you folks do their own terminations. If you put your own sweat equity into any product, of course it's going to cost you less. If I just sold bulk cable and parts, my cables would be much cheaper too. But, my customers don't know how to terminate them correctly. I perform a valuable service by selling a completed cable assembly. I've been making my own cables for 25 years and Granite Audio cables for 8 years. I've never had a cable come apart, fail, or have a termination problem. NEVER. Can any other company make that claim? What is that level of reliable quality worth to you? Will all those cheaper cables still be in one piece 25 years from today? Will the cheaper cables terminated by amateurs give quality performance every single day without failure or loss for 25 years? Engineering - My cable specs are certainly comparable to Belden's best RG59. Then we did some proprietary engineering of our own to design a cable suited for our specific market of very demanding high-end users with very expensive gear. This engineering cost me big bucks. These costs have to be recovered on a relatively small production volume. Belden spreads their costs over thousands of miles of cables. So, their cables are cheaper per foot because of economy of scale. But, my cables are specially engineered for a small niche market that Belden can't compete in because they're too big of a company. This is the American business system. Big companies and small companies successfully competing side-by-side. I can't do what they do for what they charge. They can't do what I do for what I charge. Marketing - Granite Audio is competing in the "boutique" cable market. We furnish objective proof with every cable that it meets specs. Yes, it does take extra time and materials to quality TDR test every cable, mark it with a unique serial number, and ship the proof with the cable. But, how else will our demanding customers know they are getting what they paid for and what we're representing? Credibility costs money. Distribution - Our products cost what they cost to make. The product is then sold to our dealers at cost plus profit margin. The dealers then sell to the end user at their cost plus profit margin. This is the cost of distribution. Distribution costs for small companies and small dealers, who market to a small widely spread out niche customer base are going to be high. Economy of scale applies to distribution as well. Service - The President of Belden doesn't process your order, terminate your cable order, test your cables, answer your questions, give you his advice, or give you any personal service. If you want or need quality service from the guy at the top, you will want to do business with a smaller company. So, if you want a quality handcrafted reliable product that has been specially engineered for your unique specialized purposes, comes with objective proof that you're getting what you paid for, and is backed by personal service from the founder of the company; then buy Granite Audio.

Well in a nutshell, I agree with everything you say here. Your cables cost what they do because of the personal attention to detail. If you were to trust that to a group of employees, you could produce more cables and at a lower cost. But then you can't put your personal stamp of approval on every one.


So you have enough customers that want that attention to detail and will pay for it. Nothing wrong with this. As long as they pay the cost, you can fill this niche market.


I can respect that.

 

[Don Hoglund]

Quote:

Originally posted by Glimmie SMPTE292 is the serial digital interface standard uncompressed HDTV uses in a professional enviornment. This signal is not found in home theater applications. Furthermore, a cable that passes 1.5gbs may not be a good analog cable at DC to 50mhz. SMPTE259 for 480i signals is becoming very popular in high end scalers being fed with DVD players. but that's about the limit for broadcast spec serial digital video in comsumer applications today. Peformance beyond that is of no benefit.

The word "today" is the key word in this quote. How many video cables purchased just a few years ago are now obsolete for today's higher bandwidth systems? Cable performance beyond today's bandwidth limits is very beneficial if you're buying a cable that will last 25 years or more.


I don't want to waste my time building products that will be obsolete before they're worn out.