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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Last night, while moving my sub around the room to find the best sounding bass, I tried something for the first time and I am confused as to the meaning of the result. A while back I plotted my bass response curve using only the sub (had to disconnect the front mains) but I used a series of test tones and it sounded like what I expected. Last night, however, I disconnected the mains and ran music through the sub only. I did this in two ways. My main CD player is my Cambridge Audio 540D DVD player. It allows me to set the mains to small, sub on and applies the crossover/bass management to two channel regular CDs. The manual (which is pitifully thin on info--my biggest complaint about Cambridge (Arcam is also thin on info in their manuals--must be a Brit thing) doesn't state the crossover frequency but after some exhaustive research I've learned that it is supposed to be at 80hz. I have no idea what the slope is. In my receiver, I can set it anywhere from 40, 60, 80, 100, 120, 150 (globally for all speakers) and the slope is said to be 12dB high/ 24dB low pass. My player is connected via analogue cables to the multichannel input of the receiver, where I engage "Pure Audio", which completely avoids DSP and lets the player's signal through. The player is also connected via toslink to the receiver so when I select the CD input on the receiver, I can use any DSP setting I want, should I wish to (sometimes I use Pro Logic II music mode for some of my two channel CDs). By switching from the M/C input to the CD input on the receiver (each input remains in the last setting used, so M/C was in Pure Audio and CD was in Stereo (which uses the receiver's crossover and activates the sub), the difference in sound from the sub with no mains was both startling and not at all subtle. In each case the xover is supposed to be at 80 hz. With the player doing the xover, the sound was articulate, one could clearly identify the bass guitar and the kick drum as separate instruments and there was more information coming from the higher frequencies (I don't have the instrumentation nor the knowledge to measure actual vs stated crossover frequencies and slopes so I'm going with the settings as stated). With the receiver doing the xover, a lot less higher frequency info was heard clearly, and the lower frequency info was muffled, inarticulate and boomy. The sub was in the identical spot throughout (all I did was toggle back and forth on the remote). My friend and I preferred the player's xover management for music, by a long shot, both with the sub alone and later with the mains engaged as well. We were trying to figure out which unit had the steeper (or shallower, I suppose it depends on your point of view) slope. Neither one of us is an engineer or physicist and we reasoned that the player's slope was steeper because the area under the curve was larger and thus contained more information than a shallower slope. I'm curious if we are correct (it's a fifty-fifty chance, the way I see it). Regardless of steeper or shallower, I know that I prefer the player's management. I'd like to know if the player has the steeper or shallower slope, though, as in the future, I would likely prefer a replacement machine (should the need arise) that gives me the more articulate, cleaner sound.


Of course, another possibility is the player's xover is not 80 hz, but something else entirely, but I have no way of checking that myself. I compared the player to the receiver set at 100 hz, to kind of explore this hypothesis, but found the player's sound preferable and more articulate. I'd love any thoughts or explanations on the subject.


Thanks.
 

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What's your receiver (pre/pro)?


To me that sounds more like bad performance on the part of the receiver than the muddying of a relatively narrow band (main/sub overlap). I hate to suggest it because I know it's a major pain, but could you swap out the receiver?
 

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To get a rough comparison of the crossovers of the CD player & the receiver, measure the output of your speakers using a SPL meter while stepping the test tones on a CD. Plot the dB measurement versus frequency. Room resonances can cause the absolute levels to vary, but the relative levels should give you an idea about what is happening.
 

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Excellent suggestion.
 

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If I understand the 2 setups correctly, we are forgetting one important factor. When you are running 6 channel out of the player, you are using it's D/A converter and not the one in the receiver. When you use the fiber connection, you are bypassing the one in the player.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by bpape
If I understand the 2 setups correctly, we are forgetting one important factor. When you are running 6 channel out of the player, you are using it's D/A converter and not the one in the receiver. When you use the fiber connection, you are bypassing the one in the player.
This is exactly correct. What I was comparing was the subwoofer output, by itself, with music, generated by the receiver set to 80 hz (which I can see on the OSD, so I assume it to be correct) and the player set to small L/R, sub on (which is supposed to give me a xover of 80 hz). Toggling back and forth via the receiver's remote allowed me to compare the two. I did level match the output of each unit, via the Intellivolume (that's what they call it) setting that allows a different volume output per source, to maintain the same relative volume. The difference in sound quality was not one of louder vs softer. When the player's DACs were in use, the sound was clearly more articulate and defined. The receiver's DACs, by comparison, produced a muddy, inarticulate sound.
 

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That's why I suggested a receiver swap, in case the receiver's DACs (or something else in there) were screwed up. It is possible that the player's DACs are just better, though.


Doing a frequency plot would illustrate any crossover problem, or - as I suspect - lack thereof. And it's a lot easier than swapping receivers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Receiver swapping is not an option at this time. I will do the frequency plot to satisfy my curiosity but I will let my ears decide on what is best for now. After all, it's about enjoying the tunes, in the end.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I didn't really think the DACs could be the issue, but I did want to make sure (I'm no engineer or expert). Still haven't had time to make measurements, but I've had to move the primary seating position in the room a bit forward from it's initial placement (about a foot or so) and after doing that, I re-listened to the same tracks under the same conditions and now it seems the better bass is with the receiver doing the work, not the player. At this rate (inches at a time), it will take months before I get this right (of course even then I'll be wanting to add traps and/or EQ into the mix--not to mention taming the higher frequencies--whole other issue but if I understand correctly, easier to fix than the bass issue). Does this tweaking ever end? :D


The good news is, although I know I can tweak it some more, my setup is already far better than anything I've had before and the sound is very good already (keeps me from spending every minute in there fretting about these issues, I already get to enjoy the tunes). Thanks for all the info so far, everyone.
 

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I think your title says it all. The higher frequencies, above 80Hz, are what make the bass sound "articulate." With a 4th order crossover, the signal will be 24dB down at 160Hz. By contrast, if your player uses a 1st order crossover, it won't be 24dB down until it gets to 1280Hz. So, naturally, if you only listen to the sub, it will sound much better with the 1st order filter because much more HF information is being played.


But we don't listen to just the sub. What counts is how the combination of the sub and mains sounds. Most main speakers can play the stuff above 80Hz much cleaner than the sub so the combo ends up sounding better with the steeper filters.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
As I've continued to experiment, and move the seats around a bit, I've found the receiver doing the bass management sounds better than the player, unlike my initial impressions. So the steeper slope must be better in conjunction with the mains. I will examine this further (don't we all :D) and I appreciate all the responses.
 
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