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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi Guys,


I'm considering to set up my first "serious" 5.1 HT system in my living room in the near future, and as a newbie to these forums, I'd like to ask a question I've got in my head as regards the type of subwoofer to buy (among front firing, down firing, sealed, etc.) for the existing layout I can not change anymore, coz remodelling of living room was finished last year. Period. Wifey is watching close!



To make a long story short I have a limited space up front for a sub to be placed here as you can see on this trick photo I made for myself in Photoshop:




Full size image here: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/08...iratoknlkl.jpg


I have enough space to place the sub between left side cabinet and right side media shelf (44 cm/17 inch wide space is available) having a depth of 50 cm/20 inches, so it looks like a good place for the sub, although its blocked/closed all the way around on each side and on the top.


What I'm considering is a completely sealed front firing subwoofer just in order to overcome all those blocking issues all around, but I still couldn't verfiy to myself that I have no better choice that a sealed type of sub, being severly limited not to look for a down firing sub, or ones that have a reflex hole somewhere on their sides.


What is your opinion on the idea of the sealed sub vs. non-sealed ones, maybe with reflex holes for my layout?


The sealed model I'm looking at is a Dali Concept Sub http://dali-speakers.com/display_con....html/150/1867


The remaining speakers I'm looking at are:


L/R Mains: Dali Concept 2

Center: Dali Concept Center

Surrounds: Dali Concept 1

AVR: Denon 2809 (with Audyssey MultEQ XT, Dynamic Volume and Dynamic EQ)


Appreciate your kind advise on above query with much thanks.
 

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I believe the Rythmik F12 , the SVS SB12 , and the Epik Vanquish can all fit into that space, those are sealed 12" subwoofers. Also the JL Audio F112 might fit into that space, if you take off the feet, and if money is not a concern. The JL Audio F110 should fit there with ease, if you don't mind blowing that much money on a sealed 10". Another sealed 10" is the Outlaw Audio ECS-10 .
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ /forum/post/16956464


I believe the Rythmik F12 , the SVS SB12 , and the Epik Vanquish can all fit into that space, those are sealed 12" subwoofers. Also the JL Audio F112 might fit into that space, if you take off the feet, and if money is not a concern. The JL Audio F110 should fit there with ease, if you don't mind blowing that much money on a sealed 10". Another sealed 10" is the Outlaw Audio ECS-10 .

Thank you shadyJ for your prompt and kind reply. Much appreciated.



The models you are quoting are really nice as all being sealed models. But what I was really interested in was to know whether such a placement of the sub into the place I have shown on the photo would be a proper place for sealed subs only, or will I have a good chance to look around on the market for other types of subs (down-firing, maybe with a reflex hole on the side) regardless of physical size till they fit, but more of a concern put on acoustic charactaristics at that position in the living room.


By all means, thanks again.
 

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No-one will be able to tell you if that spot in your room is acoustically a good place for a subwoofer. All you can do is try it. It might end up being great/ok/terrible and you won't be able to do anything about it (unless there are other locations in your room that you can move the sub to).


However, in that specific location you probably want to stick to front-firing sealed, or front-firing front-ported (like the Sentinal ). I had a roommate who placed a down-firing front-ported sub in a similar location and the sub was basically inaudible.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by milkfat /forum/post/16956584


No-one will be able to tell you if that spot in your room is acoustically a good place for a subwoofer. All you can do is try it. It might end up being great/ok/terrible and you won't be able to do anything about it (unless there are other locations in your room that you can move the sub to).


However, in that specific location you probably want to stick to front-firing sealed, or front-firing front-ported (like the Sentinal ). I had a roommate who placed a down-firing front-ported sub in a similar location and the sub was basically inaudible.

Hi milkfat,


Thanks for your reply, ...so ...as suspected, such a closed space is probably best utilized by a sealed front firing sub. Your approach (together with your classmate's experience) seems quite reasonable to me.
 

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A front firing sub will be "best" in that compromised position. A downfiring sub might work, but it won't really have enough breathing room.


If you want a ported sub, avoid any subs with ports that fire into the enclosed space. Look for a sub with port(s) on the front baffle. However, this limits the size of the driver, if the driver and ports all need to be on the front. There are some subs that locate the port near the corner to make efficient use of the front baffle space.


Good luck.


Craig


Edit: If the position of the sub turns out to be a significant compromise in terms of Sound Quality, do you have any flexibility in moving the Listening Position?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john /forum/post/16956805


A front firing sub will be "best" in that compromised position. A downfiring sub might work, but it won't really have enough breathing room.


If you want a ported sub, avoid any subs with ports that fire into the enclosed space. Look for a sub with port(s) on the front baffle. However, this limits the size of the driver, if the driver and ports all need to be on the front. There are some subs that locate the port near the corner to make efficient use of the front baffle space.


Good luck.


Craig


Edit: If the position of the sub turns out to be a significant compromise in terms of Sound Quality, do you have any flexibility in moving the Listening Position?

Thank you Craig for your nice proposals, I think you are absolutely right for suggesting the front firing concept for my current living room layout, moreover I suppose a sub with a port on the front baffle may suffer from having a drive diameter with FR not low enough in order to be able to enjoy the desired "deep bass" that I'm permanently looking for. The one I'm lookin' at has a 29 Hz lowest cutoff (at her -3dB point, as per maker's specs), so a decision on my side will come very soon thanks to all of your kind concerns here.



P.S. Regret to say, but there is no flexibility at this given layout of our living room at the moment for moving the position of the sub to a different place.



Much much appreciate you help, indeed.
 

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what size in inches is the opening? a ported 12 can go low enough to satisfy most people. i get flat response down to 18hz with my Epik Sentinel. it all depends what the box is tuned to.


the Sentinel is 14.5" wide and 20" tall. it's going to have the most 20hz output of anything similar in size.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcjasonb /forum/post/16956970


what size in inches is the opening? a ported 12 can go low enough to satisfy most people. i get flat response down to 18hz with my Epik Sentinel. it all depends what the box is tuned to.


the Sentinel is 14.5" wide and 20" tall. it's going to have the most 20hz output of anything similar in size.

Hi mcjasonb, now you come up and make me scratch my head again!



I've got homework to do!



Thank you, anyhow!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john /forum/post/16956805


Edit: If the position of the sub turns out to be a significant compromise in terms of Sound Quality, do you have any flexibility in moving the Listening Position?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf /forum/post/16956935


P.S. Regret to say, but there is no flexibility at this given layout of our living room at the moment for moving the position of the sub to a different place.

If you can't move the sub position, can you move the *listening* position?


There are 3 "parts" to the subwoofer sound quality equation: 1. The room; 2. The subwoofer placement, and; 3. The listening position. All 3 will affect the sound. 1 is only correctable with acoustic treatments, (or re-construction,
). If 2 is not adjustable, then your only recourse is 3... the listening position. Sometimes an adjustment of the LP is just as useful as a re-positioning of the sub.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf /forum/post/16956935


The one I'm lookin' at has a 29 Hz lowest cutoff (at her -3dB point, as per maker's specs), so a decision on my side will come very soon thanks to all of your kind concerns here.

29 Hz is just "OK" for HT, (it's plenty deep for most music). A sub that gets to 20 Hz or lower will be better. The Rythmic sub suggested above will dig to 14 Hz, or a full octave below the Dali. The Epik will get to 20 Hz. Either of these should work better for HT, (or for pipe organ music, if you're into that), than the Dali.


Craig
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john /forum/post/16957144


If you can't move the sub position, can you move the *listening* position?


There are 3 "parts" to the subwoofer sound quality equation: 1. The room; 2. The subwoofer placement, and; 3. The listening position. All 3 will affect the sound. 1 is only correctable with acoustic treatments, (or re-construction,
). If 2 is not adjustable, then your only recourse is 3... the listening position. Sometimes an adjustment of the LP is just as useful as a re-positioning of the sub.



29 Hz is just "OK" for HT, (it's plenty deep for most music). A sub that gets to 20 Hz or lower will be better. The Rythmic sub suggested above will dig to 14 Hz, or a full octave below the Dali. The Epik will get to 20 Hz. Either of these should work better for HT, (or for pipe organ music, if you're into that), than the Dali.


Craig

Oh My Lord, Craig, I wish I could invite you to Budapest upon the time when I'm gonna set up my brand new HT so that we could judge together all that jazz with our bare naked ears, and have a beer somewhere out in town afterwards to discuss everything that is best in life, like HT, women, cars,.... and enjoy good food that makes us FAT!!!
Deal?



Appreciate all your feedback, indeed!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv /forum/post/16957206


Was there a mention of room size here ?

No, but I'm not sure it matters. He's limited to one placement and a specific box size requirement. Whether the available subs that meet those requirements have "enough" output for his room size doesn't seem to be part of the decision.


It seems he is only interested in optimizing what is possible, given the placement/size requirements.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf /forum/post/16957298


Oh My Lord, Craig, I wish I could invite you to Budapest upon the time when I'm gonna set up my brand new HT so that we could judge together all that jazz with our bare naked ears, and have a beer somewhere out in town afterwards to discuss everything that is best in life, like HT, women, cars,.... and enjoy good food that makes us FAT!!!
Deal?



Appreciate all your feedback, indeed!

Never been to Budapest... sounds like fun!
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warpdrv /forum/post/16957206


Was there a mention of room size here ?

Room size I didn't mention here yet, but you are right, so here goes:


Lenght: 4.04 meters/ 13 feet

Widht: 3.73 meters/ 12 feet

Hight: 3.09 meters/ 10 feet


Like all rooms this room also has resonance frequencies (and multiples), so bear with them , please.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf /forum/post/16957333


Room size I didn't mention here yet, but you are right, so here goes:


Lenght: 4.04 meters/ 13 feet

Widht: 3.73 meters/ 12 feet

Hight: 3.09 meters/ 10 feet


Like all rooms this room also has resonance frequencies (and multiples), so bear with them , please.

Are there openings to other spaces, (doors, hallways, etc.)? Does the room have windows? If not, and the room is "sealed", any of the subs mentioned, including the Dali, should work quite well. In a sealed room, the shallow rolloff of a sealed sub will benefit from significant LF room gain. Still the subs with deeper extension will have more headroom... and headroom is always good.


If the room is not sealed, then some of the subs with deeper response will be better choices.


Craig
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john /forum/post/16957376


Are there openings to other spaces, (doors, hallways, etc.)? Does the room have windows? If not, and the room is "sealed", any of the subs mentioned, including the Dali, should work quite well. In a sealed room, the shallow rolloff of a sealed sub will benefit from significant LF room gain. Still the subs with deeper extension will have more headroom... and headroom is always good.


If the room is not sealed, then some of the subs with deeper response will be better choices.


Craig

Hiya Craig,


Yes, there are openings to other spaces, BTW have you ever been to a room that has no doors? If so, how did you get inside? No, just kiddin', eh?! :) And yeah, like most living rooms my room does have windows. To make it clear and understandable this is not a dedicated home theater room but an average living room where I'm planning to set up an HT.


Thank you very much, indeed, for your kind feedback.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf /forum/post/16957472


Hiya Craig,


Yes, there are openings to other spaces, BTW have you ever been to a room that has no doors? If so, how did you get inside? No, just kiddin', eh?! :) And yeah, like most living rooms my room does have windows. To make it clear and understandable this is not a dedicated home theater room but an average living room where I'm planning to set up an HT.


Thank you very much, indeed, for your kind feedback.

I have been in several rooms with doors that, when closed, completely sealed the room... no windows or other openings. In such rooms, the LF response changes appreciably depending on whether the door is open, partially open, or completely closed and sealed.


In *most* rooms, with openings to other spaces, the openings will have a significant influence on the in-room acoustics, especially in the low frequencies. Your room is small enough that a door open or closed will have an appreciable effect on the acoustics.


Craig
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillCinLR /forum/post/16960099


Before the OP gets too wound up on EPIK's Sentinal ... EPIK doesn't ship to foreign countries. As good as it is, he can't get it.


Bill C

Thanks Bill for your information, I didn't get too wound up, yet, ...but almost!



The Dali speakers/ sub I'm looking for are available locally where I am living, already found the best price in town. Dealer said in case of a full set purchase he can give me some further discount. Sounds pretty good, eh?



Thanks again.
 
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