Consumer ED Panny-Any EXCELLENT DVD Player Experiences?

Check e bay.com, ecost.com and the HT Marketplace section (here at AVS Forum, aka videogon.com) for the Denon DVD-2900. Prices range from $500 - $600+ on these sites. They are either used or refurbished (by Denon and warranted) models. Use the component output in progressive mode for the best picture.


Dakmart.com still shows the Denon DVD-1600 (refurbished model from Denon), which is a re-badged Panasonic RP-82, as available for under $300. Check their stock if you are interested. Use the player's component output in progressive mode only.


There's a Panasonic RP-91 listed in the HT Marketplace for $250. If I recall correectly, there was also one listed on e bay.com for around $200. The MPEG decoder is excellent (same as the RP-82, XP-30/50, DVD-1600), but only use the player in interlaced mode (let the plasma do the deinterlacing). The component output should give the best picture.


The Panasonic RP-82, XP-30/50 models are hard to come by these days and should only be used in progressive mode. When they do show up, they are usually listed for $300 - $400.


Panasonic (DVD-S97) and Sony (975?) have HDMI enabled players comming out soon (possibly November) for $299 retail. Before you say "Yes!", wait for reviews of these players. Panasonic plasmas and the new Faroudja 23xx deinterlacing chip don't seem to mix all that well.

Joe Murphy Jr’s posted:
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Joe Murphy Jr’s post is VERY SIGNIFICANT. The AVS DVD PLAYERS FORUM has posts of so-called giant-killer [newly released inexpensive DVD players in the $150-$300 range that beat the performance of previously released high-priced DVD players] owners. The posts indicate 100% total disappointment feeding them to Panny’s (don’t seem to mix all that well).


The long, long, long, long awaited – soon to be released in the U.S. - Panasonic DVD-S97 is supposed to be available TODAY in Japan! Everyone is waiting for the reviews.

jrock65
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Two of the factors are:

Changing consumer requirements (they wanted cheap players)


Years ago, Panasonic thought putting a top rated Faroudja in the DVDs was what consumers wanted. Unfortunately, sales did meet expectations, so for the last few years they instead “rolled-their-ownâ€. That allowed them to compete in the cheap cheap DVD marketplace. Most buyers don’t know the difference as all they wanted was something called a DVD player. The more sophisticated buyers simply asked if it has progressive scan. The DVD-S97 supposed to be release JAPAN today signals a change back to better. The question of whether it is a giant-killer is not yet answered.

COPY PROTECTION ETC

I refuse to rant and rave about it and get banned from the forum.


Good luck,

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A nit-pick, but I'd disagree with this advice, Joe. Or at least I wouldn't use it as a general rule for the RP-91. I use the RP-91 and it's de-interlacing is significantly better than the de-interlacer of my 4UY plasma. I don't know if Panasonic has specifically improved their plasma de-interlacing in the latest models, though.


But even still, the Genesis chip de-interlacer in the RP-91 is a competent de-interlacer for film-based material, which makes up the vast majority of most people's DVD content. It tends to show a few more artifacts with video-based stuff.


In fact, I had a shoot out between the RP-91 and the venerable Denon 5900 and Pioneer 59AVi at my home. I was expecting to want to replace the RP-91. But on my display there wasn't an absolutely clear advantage, visually, with the newer players. And my film de-interlacing torture tests (like 2001) appeared pretty much equally smooth on all three players.


The RP-91 does have a measurably flatter, slightly more extended frequency response from it's interlaced output (the progressive output is slightly rolled off), but I can't really see the difference on my display. Perhaps it would be noticeable on a big projected image.


End of quibble. Otherwise, great stuff.

Rich


The RP-91 clips the blacks when it is in progressive mode, exactly the opposite of the other mentioned players (except the DVD-2900, which correctly passes below black in either mode). In my opinion, and I thought yours since you use the S-video output and frequently comment on black levels, that carries more weight than slightly better deinterlacing compared to the display (a plasma in both of our cases).


When I got my DVD-1600, I watched a few scenes of various DVDs. I had to connect it via a composite connection due to the fact that I didn't have 3 BNC connectors to hook it up via component to my Panasonic 50" 6UY. The picture looked washed out and lacking, despite recalibration with Digital Video Essentials. I compared it to the RP-91's picture (via composite as well) and clearly noticed a difference in its depth and richness. It was due to the black levels. Once I received 2 more BNC connectors, I connected the DVD-1600 to the plasma via the component outputs and in progressive mode: the quality of the picture that was missing reappeared.


You mentioned that the component output of the RP-91 appears to roll off. Is that in progressive mode or in interlaced as well (compared to the S-video output)? I have a feeling that most DVD players change the picture's frequency response (at least the luminance levels) when going from interlaced to progressive. I have a Pioneer DV-655A connected via component to my plasma at this time (please don't ask!). I calibrated with Digital Video Essentials in interlaced mode. Upon switching to progressive mode, it was easily apparent with the Reverse Gray Ramp test pattern that something was amiss. If I wanted to use that player in progressive mode, I would have to recalibrate.

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I wasn't aware the RP-91 clips blacks in progressive mode. Was that in the "Secrets" shoot-out? If so I missed it or don't remember that result.

When I compared shadow detail on the RP-91/5900/59AVi on my display I didn't perceive any advantage for the other players. The difference seemed mainly to be color hue/saturation.


Regarding my S-Video output, I like it because of it's sharpness and it's lack of video noise. However, I find if anything blacks are more clipped on the S-Video/interlaced signal, vs my component progressive signal. (Sometimes I switch to component just because of that).


I find the difference between the Plasma's internal de-interlacer and the RP-91's to be significant. I can really see the plasma's poorer performance on lots of program material (and it's one of the defects I have to live with when I use my S-Video signal. If I could banish those de-interlacing artifacts while benefiting from the super-clear S-Video image I'd be in heaven.)


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Actually, as I said on my display it doesn't appear rolled off. I only know it's rolled off because a few people who've measured it have said so (including people at SOHT). You're right - apparently some players will roll off some high-frequencies in progressive, depending on their de-interlacing chip. I don't know if it's visible unless you have a really big screen.


It seems our separate experiences with the RP-91 don't totally match up, but I can only report it as I've seen it.


Thanks!

Rich


Secrets only reports on the progressive aspects of the players. You can see in the RP-91's report that it does not pass below black (in the progressive mode that they test).


Use a calibration DVD such as Digital Video Essentials or even Video Essentials (don't use Avia as there are no signals below digital 16, so there's no below black on this disc). Use any of the test patterns to set black level and you will see that the RP-91 clips black in progressive (PLUGE pattern: VE = 1 vertical bar, DVE = 2 vertical bars) and passes below black in interlaced (PLUGE pattern: VE = 2 vertical bars, DVE = 3 vertical bars).


Are each of your inputs calibrated to the display? I'm sure you've done this, but you might want to recheck it. As for the other players that you compared your RP-91 to, were their pictures richer/more saturated or was the RP-91's picture richer/more saturated when compared in progressive mode?


One thing that may influence the progressive vs interlaced could be any advancements that Panasonic has made in the last few years (4UY vs 6UY).

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That just isn't making sense to me, because my RP-91 is outputting below black in progressive. It's the default mode in the firmware I'm using, whereas I still have the option of the lighter/darker black level setting for interlaced.


When I leave the interlaced signal on the 7.5 IRE setting ("lighter") and switch between progressive and interlaced, the interlaced's lighter 7.5 IRE setting is very obvious to observe compared to the component/progressive - the 7.5 IRE black levels are much higher. When I switch it to the "darker" setting (outputting 0 IRE) the image becomes completely identical to the progressive image in every way - including black depth, detail etc. That would seem to strongly suggest the progressive is therefore outputting the same below black setting. I'm not clear how this could be so if the progressive weren't putting out below black.


It's been a while since I whipped on a calibration disc, but I'll try again as you suggest.

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Yes. Component and S-Video both have ISF'd settings.

As for the other players that you compared your RP-91 to, were their pictures richer/more saturated or was the RP-91's picture richer/more saturated when compared in progressive mode? [/b]


The RP-91 tended to be the least saturated, least color rich. The 5900 seemed richer, the 59AVi, going on memory, seemed in between the RP-91 and 5900 in terms of color saturation, but had if anything the most precise, clean image. We are talking visible, but very minor differences. The differences were minor enough for me not to buy those new flagship DVD players and keep the RP-91.

Quote:

One thing that may influence the progressive vs interlaced could be any advancements that Panasonic has made in the last few years (4UY vs 6UY).

Yup. Could be.

Click to expand...

Rich


Setting to 0IRE/darker does not mean that your or any player is passing below black.


0IRE is the voltage level that is selected for black (a reference level, if you will), just as 7.5IRE/lighter (aka Setup) for black doesn't mean that the player won't be passing below black.


An IRE is 7 millivolts. If you select 0IRE, then the reference level for black is 0 volts. If you select 7.5IRE, then the reference level for black is 7.5 x 7 millivolts (53 millivolts). Again, this is just a reference level for the display regarding where it expects black. It doesn't have anything to do with signals that go below or above that reference.


If you switch between 0IRE and 7.5IRE (darker to lighter), you need to recalibrate the display. The reason the image would be lighter is because the reference level for black that you previously had the display calibrated to has shifted up (increased in voltage). The exact opposite applies to going from lighter to darker (7.5IRE to 0IRE). The image that would be produced would be darker due to the fact that the reference level for black has gone down (decreased in voltage).


I believe the latest firmware is v262.

[EDIT: I corrected the decimal error. An IRE is 7 millivolts -- not the .7 millivolts that was originally typed. Thanks to Chris for catching that!]

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While I don't doubt your recollection here, this is a subject area that has been thoroughly obliterated with confusion on many a forum. IRE is a unit which is used to represent an analog voltage. DVDs, by their nature, are encoded with *digital* data from 1-254.


Only when that data is output in an analog format does voltages (hence IRE) enter the picture. Black is digital 16 on the disc, and it stays that way no matter what. It's black, and no matter how it's output, it should be seen as black on your display.


Black (fixed at digital 16 on the disc) can be output at a voltage that corresponds to US NTSC standard, or not, which involves what IRE black is output at. You then calibrate your display to show that voltage as black, because that's what it is, black. The point here is that whether it's output at 0IRE, or 7.5 IRE, it's still black, and should look *identically* black when displayed on a properly calibrated viewing device for that voltage.


Blacker than black in this instance refers to data below reference black, thus *digital* values below 16. Sometimes these values are clipped. They can be clipped, or preserved whether black is output at 0IRE, or 7.5 IRE.


DVDs are not capable of being "encoded" with absolute IRE units. This kind of a statement is completely nonsensical.


Btw: joe missed the decimal, 7.5IRE is 53mV

Yo,


Thanks brothers. While I'm familiar with the basics of 0/7.5 IRE I was confused about the below black issue. I'd always assumed that when the Panny RP-91 was set to "darker" it automatically was passing below black. Now I know better. Thanks.


Quite a while ago I experienced something a little puzzling in my set-up. To set the scenario up: The general rule as I understand it for black level set-up is: use 7.5 IRE set-up for S-video/composite connections and 0 IRE for component video. Both standards peak out at 100IRE. 7.5 to 100IRE is the NTSC standard (American, Japan uses 0 IRE) and component is expanded to 0 to 100 IRE. So that gives a bit more dynamic range in component signals (although I don't know how visible that is in practice).


Basically, for component you can use either 0 IRE or 7.5 IRE as black, just as long as you calibrate appropriately for either. (Obviously if you change your black level setting from 0 to 7.5, you must recalibrate, and visa versa). The point is that whether you use 0 IRE or 7.5 IRE isn't a big deal, as they should look identical with proper calibration (you are simply using two different starting points for "black").


Ok, here's the weird thing. Instead of using the "lighter" 7.5 IRE black set-up for my S-Video input, I use the "darker" 0 IRE setting. When the S-Video setting receives 0 IRE black it clips or crushes the blacks a tiny bit - I loose a tiny bit of shadow detail that no raising of brightness level recovers.


So why not just use 7.5 IRE and calibrate appropriately, gaining back the shadow detail? I've tried it. But, while I do gain back the shadow detail, for some reason I loose something in the picture that I just can't get back, even when I try and re-calibrate. On the darker setting, the S-Video image just looks punchier and richer. On the "lighter" setting - no matter how I re-calibrate the brightness contrast - the picture appears to wash out a bit, loosing some contrast, depth and punch. I just can't get it back. So I leave it on the darker setting.


I don't know if anyone can make sense of why I'm seeing that (short of having to hand in my videophile-member card). But that's the case.


- ?

spa

I think you're still not quite getting the meanings of the terms and what they apply to.


IRE is actually an analog term, so there is little relevance to the digital terms. Color value is not relevant here either, because we are actually talking about the intensity of the signal when discussing digital terms.


The easiest way to calibrate your display is to answer this basic question: can each input be calibrated individually without affecting the other inputs (eg; Input #1 can have a different Brightness level than Input #2)?


If each input can be adjusted differently, use the 0IRE/darker setting and calibrate that input to the RP-91. If each input cannot be adjusted differently from the other inputs (eg; changing the Brightness level on Input #1 also changes the Brightness level for Input #2), use the 7.5IRE/lighter setting when you calibrate.


Displays that do not have independent memories for each individual input must see the same reference for black from each source. Broadcast television, cable, laserdisc, VHS have a 7.5IRE reference for black. If you calibrate such a display with a DVD player which references black at 0IRE, the rest of the sources will look too dark. Most DVD players give you a choice of 0IRE or 7.5IRE for black, so if you have a display like this you can choose 7.5IRE on the DVD player. This way, black will have the same reference level from each source.


A display that offers different memory settings for each individual input will allow you to calibrate for a 0IRE black reference with the DVD player, 7.5IRE reference for the VHS player and 7.5IRE for the laserdisc player. This allows you to take advantage of the extra 7.5IRE of dynamic range that is available from the DVD player.


By the way, VHS and laserdisc will also pass below black information. Check out the Video Essentials or A Video Standard laserdiscs and you'll see this to be the case. And if you record those PLUGE test patterns on a VHS tape, it too will pass the below black video to your display. Both formats use 7.5IRE as a reference for black, demonstrating that the IRE black reference (0IRE or 7.5IRE) has nothing to do with passing below black video.


Chris

Ouch! Ya got me! Damn computer calculators...


I actually typed the above much earlier, but the connection dropped and I wasn't going to delete it after I typed it. I hate typing and I hate damn computers... Nevertheless, maybe it will help.