[Wickerman1972]

I've been reading some things coming from CES that have me very excited for HDTVs that may be showing up later this year. First of all I heard that Pioneer showed off a Plasma HDTV that had an incredibly high contrast ratio and it may hit the market this year. They didn't give exact figures for it but I've read speculation that it may have been higher than 100,000:1. Also, Sharp showed off a LCD that was 1,000,000:1! Considering these quantum leaps I'm starting to wonder if SED will really ever get off the ground since it is looking like the other technologies will be able to do what it can and they are already established. So now I'm thinking that I'm definately going to wait for this stuff to hit the market before I upgrade. But what I want to know is what are the contrast ratios for good CRT HDTVs? I really can't find any detailed information about it. The best I located was something from Wikipedia saying that CR for CRTs is basically infinate. Well, that doesn't tell me much. I want to know what CR rating I should wait for before buying a flat panel that will look as good to my eyes as current CRTs. Should I wait for 50,000:1, 100,000:1, 1,000,000:1...what? I want a flat-panel that has as good of color reproduction and contrast as my Sony XBR970 CRT and the true 1080p resolution of flat-panel HDTVs. So what CR rating should I sit on before going for the upgrade? At what rating does CR get good enough so that I shouldn't be able to tell a difference between CR on the flat-panel and my XBR970? Of course, I know that the longer I wait the better contrast ratios will get. But I don't want to wait forever. There has to be a point where CR is so good that even higher CR wouldn't matter all that much.

 

[leftkidney]

the only contrast ratio that matters is the ANSI any other is not a good measurement


there can be a contrast ratio of 100000"1 and in ANSI it is only 300-500:1


ANSI is a checker board pattern and with a rear projection on and off could be 100000:1 or more but in ANSI it is leaking light and is a lot lower

 

[Wickerman1972]



Quote:
Originally Posted by leftkidney /forum/post/0


the only contrast ratio that matters is the ANSI any other is not a good measurement


there can be a contrast ratio of 100000"1 and in ANSI it is only 300-500:1


ANSI is a checker board pattern and with a rear projection on and off could be 100000:1 or more but in ANSI it is leaking light and is a lot lower

OK, so what is the CR of the average CRT?

 

[leftkidney]

most of them are really high the highest of all tv with Plasmas next


the actual CR I dont know but this will help

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrast_ratio

 

[Wickerman1972]

Yeah, I already read that. I mentioned it in my post in fact.

 

[leftkidney]

infinite means that when it is off it is black as black can be and when it is on it is bright as bright can be


what does this mean not really sure just I know that a CRT will have blacks that look liquid black now infinite almost would mead that the difference could be almost infinite because the phosphors in a CRT can burn really hot like a plasma hot as the sun or hotter which means that it should be pretty bright that is way brighter than most RP lamp based displays can go and a LCD is limited by the brightness of the tube light behind it or in some very new displays a LED system so if the light can get so bright it could burn your eyes then go to true black or below true black the ratio is only limited by how bright it can get


a LCD when you turn it iff is ont black it is actuality greyish unless it is a computer display with that shiny cover those look great


but a LCD can only get so black and the difference between that and how bright it can get is no way near as bright as the difference between how bright a phosphor burns or plasma and true black

 

[Mathesar]

I have a NEC 20WMGX2 LCD with the glossy screen / 1600:1 contrast ratio and can tell you it is VERY lacking in black level performance compared to my CRT sitting next to it (Sony FW900), Especially at night when playing games or watching movies. The LCD looks fantastic for browsing the web but anything else I use the CRT.


I took this pic recently and I had the LCD set as dark as possible ,I even had Advanced DV enabled which cuts the backlight brightness in half: Link

 

[like.no.other.]

You can't measure CRT's contrast ration that's why they never

advertise it. It's usually infinite. Blacks will be black, whites will

be whites.

 

[Wickerman1972]

OK, so we can't actually put a number on CRTs but can somebody who is in the know on this stuff give me a number for CR on a flat panel that would look damned close to a CRT? How would 100,000:1 look compared to CRT for instance?

 

[like.no.other.]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman1972 /forum/post/0


OK, so we can't actually put a number on CRTs but can somebody who is in the know on this stuff give me a number for CR on a flat panel that would look damned close to a CRT? How would 100,000:1 look compared to CRT for instance?

There is no 100,000:1 yet. The highest demo of TV that has been released

is 15,000:1 which is SED. Plasma, some LCoS, some DLP have 10,000:1

contrast ratio. LCD just don't have enough to go to 10,000:1.

 

[Wickerman1972]



Quote:
Originally Posted by like.no.other. /forum/post/0


There is no 100,000:1 yet. The highest demo of TV that has been released

is 15,000:1 which is SED. Plasma, some LCoS, some DLP have 10,000:1

contrast ratio. LCD just don't have enough to go to 10,000:1.

Yeah, I know there isn't one yet but some things shown at CES suggested that things like that would be coming eventually so that is why I want to know.

 

[leftkidney]

I will say this again it is all about ANSI CR if it isnt ANSI it is not worth anything at all the difference can be like 10000:1 then a ANSI is 400-500:1 a RPTV will have a higher CR but a lower ANSI CR and a Plasma will have a CR that is closer to the ANSI CR but not quite a LCD I am not sure

 

[Jack White]

Actually I believe that LCOS have the 2nd highest contrast ratios after CRTs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leftkidney /forum/post/0


most of them are really high the highest of all tv with Plasmas next


the actual CR I dont know but this will help

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrast_ratio

 

[ChrisWiggles]



Quote:
Originally Posted by leftkidney /forum/post/0


the only contrast ratio that matters is the ANSI any other is not a good measurement


there can be a contrast ratio of 100000"1 and in ANSI it is only 300-500:1


ANSI is a checker board pattern and with a rear projection on and off could be 100000:1 or more but in ANSI it is leaking light and is a lot lower

This is not correct.


Both on/off CR and ANSI CR are fundamentally important figures of merit. They each quantify very different things. On/off CR is a sequential measurement, and ANSI CR is a simultaneous measurement.


At very low APL, on/off CR is very important in attaining a full screen black, and is very important in attaining good instantaneous contrast ratios in those images.


Conversely, at high APL, ANSI CR is very important in maintaining black in the presence of bright elements on the screen which tend to spill onto the darker portions and reduce instantaneous contrast in those images.


One can have strengths or weaknesses in one or the other, or both.


This is an excellent article on contrast ratios:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...06-part-1.html

 

[ChrisWiggles]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman1972 /forum/post/0


OK, so what is the CR of the average CRT?

ANSI contrast is usually low. I don't know what the ANSI of average direct-views are, but probably not above 200:1, and likely significantly below that.


on/off CR as mentioned, can be practically infinite. In reality it is not because setting to a full fade to black usually sacrafices too much shadow detail, but 5 or 6 orders of magnitude are not unrealistic at all with reasonable settings that maintain a pretty solid fade to black.

 

[Wickerman1972]

Still nobody has offered an answer to my question. What I'm asking is for someone to tell me what contrast ratio does LCDs and Plasmas need to reach before the PQ will be comparable with CRTs? I don't care about an explanation about ANSI, etc. Using the methods that manufacturers use now to rate CR what CR rating should I wait for?

 

[Waterbug]

maybe 50,000:1 might be quality that is just as good as CRT.


Maybe you should wait when plasma get a contrast ratio of 10,000:1 or around there or higher that isn't really inflated...

 

[ChrisWiggles]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Wickerman1972 /forum/post/0


Still nobody has offered an answer to my question. What I'm asking is for someone to tell me what contrast ratio does LCDs and Plasmas need to reach before the PQ will be comparable with CRTs? I don't care about an explanation about ANSI, etc. Using the methods that manufacturers use now to rate CR what CR rating should I wait for?

Well, being as I just said that CRTs reach real-world on/off CRs of 5-6 orders of magnitude, you'd need probably 100,000:1+ to match the similar on/off CR capabilities.

 

[Wickerman1972]

Hmmm, I was hoping that they might just need to be 50,000:1 or even 100,000:1 because I've heard that could happen in the next year or two.

I was afraid I might have to wait for 1,000,000:1 or something like that.

 

[Vega78]

I wouldn't worry about the actual numbers. CRTs have the best potential contrast ratio. I found that after I have calibrated any of my tvs, my picture is alittle on the dark side anyway. I found on my Trinitron that you can't crank the contrast to full blast unless if you want annoying picture warping and bleeding from all colors. CRTs seem to have their limits too. Sony TVs have always seemed to have the best CR out of all tube tvs. Panasonic Tau flat screens and a few Sharp flat screens seemed to give them a run for their money though. Anyway, I never look at numbers, just the pictures. Some more expensive LCDs seem to do pretty well, but I won't own them for a handfull of other reasons as well as the other flat pannel technologies. If contrast is all you're looking for, I think you can find something right now that will make you happy. Just depends if you're willing to spend some serious money on something that could be half the price by the end of this year. Thats why I'm stuck on either getting the Sony 970, or waiting until they finally get this flat tv crap right.