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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I am at wits end here. First off, disclaimer, this is going to be a long post, it needs to be in order to thoroughly explain the situation.

I recently moved from a house to an apartment, unfortunate yes but fortunately only temporarily. This needed to be stated.

When I was at my house, my Klipsch KG4s were my trusted main front left and right speakers for a long, long time.

When I moved, I hired a moving company for everything BUT my home audio. I am dead serious. I used my own truck and packed everything myself because I trust NO ONE with my home audio but ME.

After moving into this apartment and getting everything set up, it was time to delve into getting my audio set up.

As always, my KG4s were my main front left and right channels, powered by my Yamaha RX-V1800. Something, however, was extremely wrong. The bass production from my KG4s were literally less than 1/8th of what they were in my house.

Now, I know the KG4s are picky with placement, and trust me when I say I rearranged these things at least twenty different ways in order to make sure I covered all bases. I tried everything from no toe in, six inches from back wall to 45 degree toe in, 3 feet from both walls and absolutely everything in between, all to no avail.

I was starting to think it was the 1800. I have three other receivers, a RX-V663, a Denon AVR-1609, and a Marantz SR-5007, ALL of them were brought into the living room to test out.

Keep in mind that the initial set up for testing was through Pure Direct on every single receiver. No sub was used, just straight left and right channels, the way I always listen to music. Also, I am using the same lossless FLAC files I have been using for years, through my computer of course, using optical audio.

I hooked up every receiver to the KG4s, all with the same end result. I then tried each receiver on 2 channel Stereo with no subwoofer and adjusted the tone, something I have never had to do with any of these receivers, but again, at wits end here. Of all of them, the 1800 sounded the "best" with the bass at +6dB, aka maxed out. This was unacceptable at best.

Now I am starting to think it's my KG4s. I take my KG4.2s into the room and hook them up as mains. I used Pure Direct through the SR5007 and it was as if I never heard bass before. I tested every other receiver, absolutely BEAUTIFUL on Pure Direct through the 4.2s, ALMOST overwhelming, but of course, due to the KG4s not producing anything at all, ANY amount of bass would seem overwhelming.

I forgot to mention, throughout all of this, when I was listening to the KG4s, if I stood OVER the KG4s, literally, when I was adjusting settings on the receiver or just trying to figure what was going on, they sounded GREAT! If I went into the bedroom adjacent to my living room, the bass sounded GREAT! It was only when I went back to my listen position, on the same couch, the same distance from the speakers as everything was in my other house, that the bass just dropped right out.

My guess, and at best this is a guess, is that the walls in this apartment are cheaply constructed and probably consist of very old and very "settled to the bottom" blown in insulation.

I am guessing that the rear firing passive radiators on the KG4s, rather than reflecting off of the wall, are being absorbed THROUGH the wall, and obviously not making it to my listening position. With the KG4.2s, the passive radiator is in the FRONT, therefore all the bass is being fired directly into the living room, and the funny thing is if I go into the bedroom while the KG4.2s are playing, I hardly hear bass at all through the walls.

Is my theory even remotely plausible? I lived in my old house for over ten years, I knew the layout very well, I am an electrician, so when it came time for the new service and new receptacles/wiring, I became VERY familiar with the walls there very quickly, I even ripped some of them down (specifically the living room), re-insulated them, ripped down the horse hair plaster, and sheet rocked them.

This apartment house is a different story. I know it's old, probably built in the 1920's or so, maybe even a little before then. I am on the third (top) floor. Behind the living room wall that my TV is on is a 2.5-3 foot wide closet that spans the whole back side of the living room wall (walk in closet obviously). The wall to the left is an outside wall with windows and what not, and the wall to the right is adjacent to one of the bedrooms (MY bedroom).

Again, does my theory even add up? If it doesn't, what in the living heck could have caused this? Both active drivers in both cabinets are working beautifully, as are both passive radiators, that is, to sight and touch, and again, when I am right there standing over them, the bass and overall sound is what it used to be in my house at the listening position.

Also, I have not updated the capacitors on the crossovers with the Crites kits yet because honestly I never had to, and I sincerely doubt that a move while they were wrapped in three full size moving blankets per speaker had any negative effect on the crossovers or capacitors within...

Sorry for the long post, if there is any other information which I have left out that would be helpful, please, let me know, I will be more than happy to provide it.

Any input on this is absolutely appreciated!

Sincerely,

Waldo
 

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Bass is less intuitive than high frequencies. Probably standing wave suckouts at listening position.

Move the speakers around more. Change left-right and front-back distances.

Move listening positions more.

Measure with REW.

How do you know best position for sub?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Honestly, trust me when I say I am not questioning your reply, but I have tried everything short of placing the speakers right in front of me while sitting on the couch. My living room is a double parlor, I am using one half of it for front stage and the other half for rear stage. My front stage measures 12' 9" wide by 10' 6" (22' overall due to being an opened up double parlor) long. I have placed these speakers in every usable spot within those measurements, again, with the exception of about 2.5' in front of the couch which would be absolutely ridiculous to have to do, and all results are the same.

REW looks interesting, I will most likely delve into that tomorrow, as tonight is winding down for me, but again, the KG4.2s, no matter where I place them, completely 110% trump the KG4s as far as bass production, seriously, the KG4s are putting out about 1/15th of the bass (at +6dB bass tone control) as the KG4.2s are with 0 dB bass in tone control, and this was never the case before. Again, it does not matter where I place the KG4.2s, they sound stellar, whilst the KG4s are basically awesome sounding mids and highs...
 

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Just a thought, are the speakers Bi-Wire-able?

If so, check that the Jumper Bars shorting the Bass to the Mid/High are in place and secure.

This is a very common point of failure. Also the easiest to overlook and equally the easiest to repair.

Finally, make ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN BEYOND ANY SHADOW OF A DOUBT that the speakers are wired correctly. That in every case, the Amp(+) goes to the Speaker(+). Nothing will suck the life out of a pair of speakers like one of the being wired backwards.

Just a few thoughts.

Steve/bluewizard
 

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just a thought, are the speakers bi-wire-able?

If so, check that the jumper bars shorting the bass to the mid/high are in place and secure.

This is a very common point of failure. Also the easiest to overlook and equally the easiest to repair.

Finally, make absolutely certain beyond any shadow of a doubt that the speakers are wired correctly. That in every case, the amp(+) goes to the speaker(+). nothing will suck the life out of a pair of speakers like one of the being wired backwards.

just a few thoughts.

Steve/bluewizard
This !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Test by reversing the connection at ONE speaker. If it sounds right, problem solved. If not, be sure the receiver does not have: a) crossover set, or b) sub = yes, or c) speakers = small.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
Thanks everyone. This is all stuff I should have mentioned I already tested, I just got lost in the essay I originally wrote.

I always wire in polarity, again being an electrician and specializing in motor controls and low/high voltage boiler wiring, etc, I know how important polarity is. I did pull out the banana plugs and reverse them on the speaker side to check to see if this was the issue (who knows about internal crossover wiring, could have been reversed from the factory...though it never presented an issue in my old house), but it was not. They were properly polarized at my old house as well, and again, never had the issue there.

As far as receiver settings, Pure Direct is Pure Direct. My fronts are already set to large and completely bypass the crossover as it is, but still, Pure Direct is Pure Direct. Also, if this was the case it would have the same effect on the KG4.2s, and this did not happen at all with the KG4.2s, and I literally just pulled the banana plugs from the 4s and plugged them into the 4.2s which were right there and the difference was beyond comprehension.

I know I am new to the site, so maybe I should have expressed some back ground information first. I was huge into car audio, both SQ and SPL, for over 15 years before I decided to call that quits and tread new waters. This is where polarity really counts, especially when you invert a subwoofer, which I don't prefer and in SPL you actually lose dB, but sme people really like to see the sub motors; but they don't know that when inverted a sub needs to be wired reverse polarity.

Somewhere in the last 4 or so years of my car audio adventures I started getting more serious into home audio. I have had Klipsch speakers for a long time, they were actually passed down to me from my father, but I never quite delved into home audio so much because I invested (or wasted?) so much time into car audio set ups, both my own and of course for friends who thought JL and Kicker were "thee" brands and had to be educated...much like people who believe Bose is the end all/be all of home audio need to be seriously educated.

I have been researching this site over the last four years, despite not actually joining until about a year ago. I have learned a LOT about home audio, but I still have more than what I have learned "to" learn, that is the beauty of it all!

Let me give you a proper list of all the steps I have taken so far:

1) Speaker polarity (testing both polarity and reverse polarity)

2) Receiver settings (The only speaker seeing any crossover at all is my center channel crosed over at 60Hz, but this is only used in 5 channel, not Pure Direct)

3) Positioning, positioning, positioning

4) Switching between optical and RCA cables to see if the input made any difference (Kind of grasping at this point)

5) Switching inputs on receiver (ie CD, DVD, Blu Ray, etc) and using both optical and RCA to see if maybe an input was funky

6) Once again going through every menu of the RX-V1800 (which, over the past 5 years I have come to know through and through) to make sure I wasn't missing "something", and I guarantee I am missing nothing.

7) Adjusting tone control (Something I NEVER had to do at the old house, but hey, may as well try it...) Did not work, and when I swapped to the 4.2s the bass was completely overwhelming and had to go back to 0dB on the bass tone control, as I have always had it, even with the 4s in my old house...

8) Trying different receivers in Pure Direct and 2 channel Stereo, with front right and left set to large and no subwoofer.

9) Positioning revisited, every time I repositioned I swapped polarity back and forth to see if the combination of both made any difference, nothing.

10) Swapped between KG4s and KG4.2s with each receiver I swapped out. Same results, KG4.2s sound absolutely STELLAR whilst the KG4s continued to severely lack bottom end, regardless of positioning for either model.

The problem remains. I am losing hope here. I am actually considering taking my RX-V1800 and these speakers to my father's house and testing them there. I will never forget what those speakers sounded like through his vintage Pioneer receiver, if I am lucky enough he will let me hook them up to IT and give them a good in and out through it. I still think it's the walls here to be honest, or it could be the floor, I only raised them up at most two inches, and that was tilting them, not actually raising the entire cabinet off the floor. Maybe it's the floor absorbing everything, no one lives on second floor right now so there's no one to complain about it. :p That is my last hope, for testing purposes I will probably just grab kitchen chairs and stick the speakers on them. Here's hoping...
 

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What are the Room Dimensions of the listening room in the old house?

What are the Room Dimensions of the listening room in the new house?

Dimension ... not square footage, including ceiling height.

Next, look are round the room, how does it compare to the original room? Carpets - not carpets? Curtains - no curtains? Soft furnishing and general clutter - hard furnishing and no clutter? Bare open walls, or bookshelves, curtains, other general clutter? Modern minimalist or old fashioned?

The more open bare walls you have, the higher degree of echo in the room? Open walls and a change in room dimensions can change the location of peaks and nulls in the room.

You say you have considered the speaker Position, but why don't you tell us where the speakers were positioned relative to the side walls and the wall behind in the old room, and then give us the same information as it stands now?

Lastly, odd as it may seem, AV Receivers occasionally get confused. There are situations where they need to be Reset. There should be instructions in the Owner's Manual on how to do a complete Reset on the Amp. That should take everything back to factory defaults, then you can run the SETUP program again, and get the AV Receiver set for your new room.

Steve/bluewizard
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 · (Edited)
I appreciate all the info, and honestly, I am happy all these replies are coming back because it sort of reinforces what I have learned over the four years of snooping around this forum. Everything you've made mention to do I have done, or should I say, "had" done before the post, with the exception of the software which I didn't happen to have time to get to today. The room in the old house as compared to here are the same cubic footage (give or take a couple feet), just different widths and lengths, ceiling height is literally within a half inch.

I keep this room the same I did my old house, minimalist. I don't have clutter, I am very simple. I have a couch, a Creative Ideas computer desk, and that is it. Everything is on this desk because it is over six feet long, three feet deep, and four feet high. Since it is Cherry wood and all one solid piece, it was real fun getting up three flights....

Anyway, that's neither here nor there. My father brought up a very good point today when I mentioned the issue to him. He said that considering I had been living in that house for over ten years and had become accustomed to it, I may not have even noticed the bass dropping out on those speakers over time; it may not have been until I moved to a new environment that the difference was actually noticeable audibly, hence my conundrum.

Honestly, I kind of have to agree with him. Maybe over time the stock crossovers have degraded as crossovers do, hell these speakers were made in the 80's when I was a kid. Capacitors, in my line of work, usually don't last more than 15-20 years, if you get THAT much time out of them.

I think I am going to contact Bob Crites. I could order the SonicCaps myself and find a replacement diaphragm somewhere that was "mediocre", but I would rather give Bob the business and get a great replacement diaphragm.

It's a monetarily cheap enough attempt to troubleshoot, and if that doesn't work, I can sell them with the Crites package locally and if someone likes them the way they are, awesome!

EDIT: Again I really appreciate all the feedback guys. This forum is and has been my favorite of all the forums I have researched over the years, let's put it this way, after 4 years it's the ONLY one I have joined. :)
 
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