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Sorry... slightly OT...


On the sample downloads (any including the original pinball, etc.) I have never gotten 5.1 on my system - M-audio 410 analog outs. I noticed that the system requirements only mention 5.1 speakers on the 1080 version so I tried it and I get these vertical red and white lines and the system freezes.


Any thoughts?
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Paul_Seng
Remember, when DVD's were first introduced with DD, there were very few receivers on the market with digital inputs (or the DD decoding capability). You had a bunch of DD ready receivers via analog inputs from your DVD player (and they were sold touting the capabilities of DD decoding).

I see no difference here.
This has been touched on in previous posts. DD was downwards compatible with pro logic (A generation earlier) for those who still had pro logic receivers. The point is also to get away from the analog connections...let the high end audio equipment do the decoding and conversion.
 

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Discussion Starter #263
Paul,

I think the biggest issue, is that many do not see WMApro audio codec as an advance over current technology. If they did, then there would be fewer objections over having to use analogs until everyone upgrades. If MSFT did commision some sort of double blind testing against some of the competing codecs. If it beat them out then I think the problems.
 

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there's actually a HUGE benefit of having a reciver with analog inputs, as of now, a reciver that can play 24bit sound costs over 3,000 dollars. so having an audigy 2 and a reciver with 6 analog channels is the poor man's way of getting 24 bit sound (there's a HUGE difference in quality in 24 bit and 16 bit sound cards). and of course, windows media 9 videos have a 24 bit WMA track, i use an nforce and convert evrything to dolby digital on the fly, but my father was looking to upgrade his reciver so i told him "well, upgrade both your reciver and your soundcard". and he did, the sound comming out from those video samples is nothing short of amazing, he now has a very cheap DVD audio player (audigy 2) and since he's a gamer like myself, he now plays games with uncompressed sound, the reciver cost him around 300 bucks, when i decide to upgrade my computer/reciver (reciver i really want to upgrade because i want one with component video inputs and DVI inputs) i'll follow suit, audigy 2 soundcard decodes DTS, DD with out the need for any filters and of course plays WMA9 better than my 16 bit Nforce 2 soundcard.

so in a way, even though WMA is inconvinient for most people i'm actually kind of a fan of it because of the 24 bit sound.

people thinking of actually doing what my father did take note of this though:


Audigy 2 can only play 48khz sounds at 24 bits, 44khz gets upsampled to 48 khz wich results in quality loss. (note that this means that ALL regular CD's are affected by this). the Audigy 2 should be your choice if you're a gamer because it's the least CPU intensive card in the market, but if youre not a gamer and really want 24 bit on your CD's and exsistent MP3 collection then i suggest you get a card like the M-audio revolution, this card can play 24 bit on both 44 and 48 khz material, but isn't a very good choice if you're a gamer because it eats up lots of CPU cycles.
 

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Thank you, thank you, thank you.

This is the best thing to come along in a long time.


I'm really glad about the content you guys have chosen. (T2 doesn't go well with kids, parents, etc.)


I wish Bob would stop complaining about the audio. There's nothing wrong with it. It would be like only having a regular dvd player and complaining that it couldn't play hd.


Use analog out and get over it. Nobody has to buy a new receiver.


I'm sure there are more reasons than are implied here as to why they are using their own audio codec. They are not only showing off their abilities and their software, but they have complete artistic control over it.


I for one am happy to finally see this happen instead of relying on the crappy job the movie industry does with their films 90% of the time.


It's nice to see some people pushing the envelope, taking a chance, and letting us see it. If they make more money using their own proprietary software, more power to them. They deserve it. They're doing a much better job than anyone else out there.


I 've been looking forward to this ever sense I bought my projector, and it was well worth the wait. (Even my projector thanks you :)
 

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Analog out would be fine if the player had decent bass management, delay and level controls. In the past this has NOT been the case for DVD players with built-in DD decoders. The DA converters on the players also tended to be inferior to those found on good receivers. Perhaps these new players will be different.
 

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Uh, DustinF, glad you like the WMA but what are your technical justifications that it should displace DD? Will it be worth the economic outlay?


The general consensus is that DD should continue as the primary audio standard for lossy compression because that ship sailed a long time ago and WMA offers no significant if any advantage to warrant jumping ship.


Arguments to the contrary are welcome but your rhetoric falls a bit short. Could you better articulate why WMA should displace DD besides "they're good guys and work hard".


DFA
 

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Quote:
I wish Bob would stop complaining about the audio. There's nothing wrong with it. ...[snip]...Use analog out and get over it. Nobody has to buy a new receiver.
The problems concerning analog outs have been addressed earlier in the thread. Analog outputs are fine for stereo, as a lot of people have at least 2 full range front speakers, but very few have 5 (or 7) full range speakers, all placed equidistant from the prime listening area, free of room nodes, to listen to multi channel material properly, but why am I repeating myself? If you had read the entire thread, you would already know this.

Quote:
Bob, if you don't like how it's been done, then don't buy the movies and wait for the blu-ray to come out with DTS or DD.
Good advice! The best way to vote is with your wallet. If we accept the status quo and just "live with it" because we are so desperate for HD DVDs to be in our hands tomorrow, then we will all pay unnecessarily in the end. Now is the time to speak up, before these decisions are set in stone, if it's not already too late.


Before anyone else comments on my audio stance, I humbly ask that you read the entire thread so that you don't keep making the same points over and over again that have already been covered, especially in regards to analog outputs and why they won't work in this situation. And my clearly amended position reads "It's alright to include WMA, as long as at least a DD 5.1 track is also included, and the video quality does not suffer due to its inclusion." But then again, if you had read the thread, you would also know that too.


No wonder Cliff gets so frustrated. I now understand completely!
 

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Not that it'll get me anywhere but I contacted Onkyo today about the possibility of adding WMA Pro decoding to my receiver. Of course, I had no choice but to point them to the new Pioneer that includes this feature.


I was able to upgrade my receiver via firmware upgrade to include DTS-ES discrete (unfortunatly no benefit to me ... my room's too small for another channel) and DTS Neo:6 (ProLogic II clone). Hopefully, the chipset would be able to handle a firmware upgrade to WMA Pro.


Either way, I need to get around to connecting the analog cables so I can play DVD-Audio discs. I guess it's not that much of a hassle in my case. I can certainly see the arguement that the "mass market" must be able to accept this technology and that group doesn't have a system anywhere near the "worst" system owned by any one of us.
 

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Man, you guys have been busy with so many posts in the last 24 hours :). Here is the promised registry hack to disable tight sync logic in media player. Please use this at your own risk (I don't know why there is a line break after "Prefe" -- this should be one line).


[HKEY_CURRENT_USER\\Software\\Microsoft\\MediaPlayer\\Prefere nces\\VideoSettings]

"IgnoreAVSync"=dword:00000001


The default should be "0" for above.


Back to some of the issues raised here ion previous posts. Here are a few comments (not answers probably).


1. We don't force the content owners to use our audio codec. WMA Pro is used for the sound tracks since that is what our tools know how to produce. The multiplexing code for Windows media is tested with our audio codecs only. Theoretically, other sound tracks can be muxed in with our video stream but the tools don't know how to do this. And much testing needs to be done to make sure A/V sync is as good as our own codecs.


2. Someone commented on the quality of WMA. I should note that these clips do NOT use WMA. They use WMA Pro which was designed about 4 years after WMA, and include many optimizations above and beyond original WMA. As such, the quality of WMA Pro is much better than WMA. There has been one independent test done that showed WMA Pro to win over AAC and other competing codecs but it did not use ITU methodology. We stand by our claim that WMA Pro outperforms competing surround codecs but whether you care about that difference or not, is up to you.


3. I hear you all loud and clear about the desirability of DTS/DD sound track. I am not sure how we are going to address it but I will discuss it with the team.


4. Anyone can license our DRM SDK without charge on Windows. It doesn't matter if they are competitors or not. Real Networks for example, has licensed it and last time I checked, they weren't exactly our friends :). In order to license our SDK though, the developer must be identifiable to us by a certificate. To get a (Verisign?) cert, Blight needed to provide some identification and he was not prepared to do so. We need this identification since our SDK license basically gives a key to the developer to all DRM content out there. If they just read the DRM content and write it back out in the clear, we need a way to identify the offending app and this cert lets us to that. So there is no getting aroung this requirement as much as I like to help blight and the users of his player.


Amir Majidimehr

VP, Digital Media Division

Microsoft
 

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I had a go with that registry key, and as said it does have a serious affect on the playback peformance. I would say that yes WMP matches ZP exactly for smoothness of playback (really pretty good considering my hardware.)

Video looks vert nice now with WMP, no more slideshows.


However, as could be perhaps guessed from the name of the registry key I lose audio/video sync completely. In the step into liquid clip the audio is off by at least 5 seconds, which is about the same for ZP.


Very interesting result. I guess it proves that WMP is not necessarily bloated or inefficent, but apparently the codecs require some serious routines to maintain the sync. It seems strange to me that just maintaining a/v sync would take so much CPU grunt, but I'm no expert.


So, on top of requesting Blight to incorporate DRM into ZP perhaps we also need him to work on some sync routines too, perhaps a selectable system of no sync/partial sync/full sync to handle cases of different hardware.


At least that way owners of low end systems could at least get some enjoyment.


I'm suffiently impressed that I'd seriously consider upgrading hardware to

view it properly, if the issues were resolved.


Amirm, thanks for the info and continuing service to the forum. The amount of posts in the last day should give you some idea of the excitment being generated here by the work of you and your team.
 

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Is this right? Adding registry as D-word and paste this hole sentence "IgnoreAVSync"=dword:00000001 ?


(my first regedit).
 

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Do you know if is there two versions of this dvd?


I have seen it for selling in some places and it says it only has one disc.


Is there an one disc version and a two discs version (the 2nd the HD version)?


Thanks.


Samuel
 

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Ok, official Zoom Player reply:

1. Zoom Player can decode 6-Channel Audio, you just need to enable it (Options / Settings / Windows Media). Make sure you have WMP9 installed.

2. ZP can use Overlay and VMR9. I believe WMP9 uses either VMR7 or VMR9, I'm "pretty sure" it uses VMR7 under Windows XP, but not 100% certain.

3. One of the reasons ZP is faster than WMP9 is that WMP9 has an additional Video-Processing filter always in use, just the buffer copies with such a large resolution video would slow things down.

4. Regarding Amir's comment about ZP being faster because it's not keeping sync as much. ZP lets DirectShow keep sync, that's like ford blaming the driver of a car for the bad carborator they installed in his car... how does that work??? It's possible WMP is bypassing DirectShow to play WMV content and instead of losing sync it would drop frames on playback... neither solution is good I think.

5. Regarding Hyperthreading. I believe directshow creates each filter on a different thread. Perhaps WMP9 has a way to tell which thread runs on which virtual CPU? I have no idea really, I don't really see a way to write SMP code for DirectShow playback... you need to be aware that ZP itself uses nearly 0% CPU power when just playing the video, the rest is handled by DirectShow itself ...


On ZP and Windows DRM:

I tried discussing this with amir, but I guess he's a bit busy, and probably not even the right person to talk to about this issue. If anyone visited microsoft's site, they would know it's a nightmare to navigate and find the correct information. I tried signing up to the DRM licensing form. I got several executable files and a 20-page legalize paper. Not being a lawyer I wasn't sure how to approach this. Also, there seems to be some need for a 3rd party digital-signature that costs anywhere from $200-$600, I have no idea why this is required and can't be generated in-house at microsoft for each licensee. Also, I think the license included both encoding and decoding... I only want to play the data, I don't want to decode it... And even if I wanted to pay the fee involved, they gave multiple links to different places that generate this ID, some of the links were down, some seemed to be very confusing... I may be a programmer, but I'm no lawyer. I have no problem giving my details, if I could get some sort of VERY CLEAR idea of the EXACT steps I need to take. Maybe someone here can help.


In the end I just got flustered from all the red-tape and moved on to other things. Heck, I'm not even sure if you can do the DRM thing without having an external file shipped or using Microsoft VC++ (which I'm not, ZP is written in Delphi). All too confusing.
 
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