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I'm reading all about this FAROUDJA, now I'm on verge of buying a Pioneer 503. I would really appreciate if someone could tell me what this device is.

Is it essential when you have a Plasma?

What exactly does it do?


It's pretty expensive, are there any cheaper alternatives?


I'm already getting a new dvd player (pio 737 with Progr. SCAN)

So I'm kind of confused what I will achieve with the Faroudja.


Thanks,


Erwin
 

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Hey Erwin,


The scaler forum on this board is the place to ask these questions.


Here's my summary of what this thing can do:

1. A scaler can improve your image by deinterlacing and scaling to your native rate.


2. I'm not sure if Faroudja has the exact native rate you're looking for (Ericbee had a problem, but I'm not sure if it's the same model as yours).


3. The Faroudja needs a high quality INTERLACED signal in order to work properly. If you've already ordered the Pioneer 737, then forget it...


4. The Pioneer 737 isn't a remarkably fantastic player. If you can take it back - get a panasonic RP56 or RP91 instead. If you want an interlaced player (i.e., you do want a scaler)- there are even more options for you at even lower prices.


5. There are other scalers, depending on what else you want to scale up - if you have DSS, VCR, Tivo, cable, etc. - you may want them all to be scaled, instead of investing with a single doubler - by buying a progressive DVD player.


Good luck,

Ofer.
 

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to follow up on what oferlaor had to say, i would take issue with the assertion that you don't need a scaler if you have progressive signal.


as far as i can tell, PDPs look best when fed their native rate because they are pixellated devices. most external scalers will do a better job of scaling to MxN pixels than the internal electronics will do. at a minimum, you need to get 480 (p or i) to 768 pixels high.


ymmv, though. i haven't futzed with anything except an HTPC for scaling.


doody.
 

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Hey Doody,


Anyone who tried Faroudja or Vigatec's progressive scaling had remarked that it was quite poor.


In actuality, it's not their fault - separating the deinterlacing and scaling parts mucks things up, so the internal scaler and Faroudja scaling of a poorly deinterlaced image would be equivalent.


I stand by my opinion: A good interlaced player + Faroudja is far better than a mid-end progressive player + Faroudja...
 

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All right, I'm going to wade in on this one.


For over a week I have had my Pioneer 503cmx installed running a progressive DVD signal from my Panny RP91 using Straightwire component-BNC cables direct to the Plasma. I have no scalers or doublers in the loop. My viewing distance is 9-10'.


The PQ for the best DVD's (5th Element, Gladiator) is pretty good. Not great, but pretty good. I still see some distortions and haziness/graininess, especially in large panoramic scenes (the colosseum scene in Gladiator, most of the mountain scenes in Vertical Limit).


The PQ for lesser quality DVD's (Field of Dreams, MIB, Blade Runner) is much less satisfactory. Believe it or not, I don't have a huge issue with the "blacks" which seems to be a bugaboo here. It's more a problem with the clarity of the picture and a generally grainy hazy look.


Don't even get me started with Satellite PQ. I know GIGO, and I saw distortions and problems with my old 32" Direct view, so I expected problems with a much larger 50" picture to expose the poor signal quality. It is painful in 4:3 and unwatchable if you try to go ZOOM or WIDE.


My question is, can a scaler really make all of this go away? The progressive output of the RP91 is 480p, and it's still not that great. I've seen plasmas that had that clear, clean look, but mine is not there yet with the current setup.


My suspicion is that the Panny 42" looked so much better because a) 480p fits it's resolution perfectly, and b) Being smaller it shows less of the faults. Is the problem I'm experiencing due to the fact that the 503 has to scale the 480p up to 768? Does the Fara really address this, since it does not output at that rate? The 503 would still have to scale from 720 to 768, right?


I know this should be in the Processors forum, but you guys have been responding here, and frankly I think this issue is of supreme importance to Plasma owners. We deal with some very specific issues I don't hear discussed much among the projector/RPTV crowd.


Regards,


Greg
 

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A quick clarification:


Only the Vigatec will accept a 480p signal and convert it to 720p or 768p. The Faroudja 5000 will convert 480p or 1080i to 1080p, but that's it, I believe.


Theoretically, the deinterlacing engine in the RP56 is identical to that in the Faroudja, so their deinterlacing performance should be identical. The RP91 uses a different chipset.


However, in both their 3000/5000 series and NR series, Faroudja does more than deinterlacing film images; in their own boxes, Faroudja employs various additional techniques for film, and has an excellent adaptive deinterlacing algorithm for video (i.e., sports programming) that is the best out there by almost universal consensus.


A Faroudja will make your non-film-based satellite or cable programming look as good as it can get. Will it be good enough? Hard to say -- a plasma is such a precise device you can't hide much from it.


On film, however, I would think that the image from an RP56 would look about 90% as good as the image from an NR, although I've not tested it.


I would also highly recommend calibrating your plasma, which can make a difference in image quality also.


Cheers
 

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Thanks, Joel. I've been considering calibration, too, so I think that is definitely in my future. I'm also taking steps to improve the basic signal that is getting through on the Satellite feed. Still, I think a video processor is my next major purchase.


I'd still like to hear how other 503/Pro1000 owners feel about their PQ without an outboard video processor. Does everyone agree that a processor is a requirement? I'll take this discussion to the Video Processor forum after this, I promise.


Thanks,


Greg
 

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Greg:


Is your satellite Dish or DirecTV? If the latter, waiting is gonna be your best friend. When the new satellite is up and tested, PQ should get better. In the meantime, you can try better cables and such, but if your signal strength is 70s or better and your cables are decent, I don't know how much difference you are gonna be able to make.


I'm inclined to agree on calibration being a winner as I've futzed with my new Panny (soon to be returned) and haven't found the magic settings yet.


I haven't seen the new Pioneer, but would be surprised that you need a processor. HD shouldn't require it at all. As for DVD, it sounds like you can easily experience the "it's not native rate" problem. Given that your TV is scaling a DVD to an uneven multiple of the vertical resolution, you are gonna have an imperfect match.


I think an HTPC is gonna provide more bang for the buck than a video processor, albeit at the price of less user friendliness.


Sadly, all of this is making me wonder if the technology is just a tad too bleeding edge... but that rant will go in another thread.


Mark
 

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I have to say that I am the reigning expert on this topic. I had an NR, an RP-91 and a Pro 1000 so I can help you. The internal scaler of the 503/1000 I feel is a step backwards from the 502/505. Let's go so far as to say they are they same, a scaler makes a world of difference here. To run a 720 signal into the 503 will cause the 503 to upconvert the signal to 1080 and then downconvert the signal to 768. This is not ideal but, the majority of the work is being done by the external scaler so a good one definitely helps, however some of the scaling is still being done by the plasma. There are no easy cheap solutions, I wish there were. The NR only outputs 720 so, the above applies. To get the best picture, you must run a scaler in native (1280x768) and bypass the internal scaler completely. I use a Leeza and it is more than night and day. Even when running the Leeza at 720, you can see huge dramatic improvements in PQ when outputting 768. I tested an RP-91 progressive into the plasma, no scaler and it looked OK. Progressive upconverted and downconverted is no match for interlaced to a scaler outputting native, a man with one eye could see the difference. SO the questions are:

How much improvement do you want?

How much do you want to spend?


These 2 questions go hand in hand. The NR and RP-91 will look better than the 91 run progressively by itself. A Leeza with any interlaced player, output natively at 768 will look the best. I say the best because there are only a handful of scalers that output 768 so, your choices are limited. Rock, Vigatech, Leeza, and Extron come to mind. The best deinterlacing of the bunch are the Leeza and Rock, both use clearmatrix. I wanted SDI and DVI and that left me only one: Leeza. Big bucks and very good overall performance. Only a Faroudja at 768 I feel could better it, but don't hold your breath.
 

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Just a clarification of the original clarification.


The DVP5000 will upscale 480p DVD to *any* of its "higher" scan rates (e.g., 800X600, 1024X768 and 1280X1024, 720p, 1080i, 960p, 1080p). It will only upscale 480p HDTV (via its HDTV input) to 960p. Yes, the early 5000s had sub-par upsampling when dealing with a progressive scan input, but that was fixed. Still, Faroudja's stance--and rightfully so--is to feed the 5000 (and any F scaler) interlaced signals. The 480p HDTV upconvert to 960p is good for Fox's 480p "HDTV" shows.


I think coupling a plasma with any F scaler other than a NR series is a waste of $$$. Others more wise have already counseled you on the advantages of an external scaler; if cost were not an issue, it's something you definitely would want to do (whether F, Rock, Leeza, Vig) to improve any NTSC signal coming into your plasma. Cost is always an issue, though...
 

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Interesting comments.


Does anyone care to compare and contrast the dscaler software on an HTPC to the commercial scalers mentioned?


I am planning to use dscaler to clean up OTA SD signals with a Hotte modified Zoltrix card. I understand I can't use dscaler to scale playback on my HTPC DVD player software yet however.


FYI, I notice the latest dscaler has alpha code for a plugin to remove logo's - I havent located the details yet but this could be a boon for plasma owners if it does what I think it does.
 

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ericbee,


You most definitely Da Man on this video processing stuff. I had not intended to spend the extra bucks on one, but now I guess I have no choice-in for a penny, in for a pound.


"Only a Faroudja at 768 I feel could better it, but don't hold your breath."


Bet you're laughing at that one! And only a few minutes difference! I actually could have held my breath...


For those who have not heard, check out ericbee's HUGE Faroudja news on this thread:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...206#post678206


NR here I come!


Greg
 

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Greg:


I have the Faroudja NR linked to my Pio 503CMX via 5BNC -- and am using a Sony 9000ES DVD.


Here are a few of my observations:


the best DVD's (Fifth Element, Gadiator) look better coming through the Faroudja with an interlaced signal from the DVD (you cannot send a progressive signal into the faroudja) \\


It looks much better than when I hooked the Sony straight into the 503 on progressive scan --especially anamorphic mode.


I also run a DirecTV signal via Svideo into the Faroudja -- these pictures while showing some softening when run in 4x3 -- are also much better than going into the 5002 board via Svideo


I turned on Galidator (DirecTV) and the picture was amazingly good -- no where near the the DVD but still very good


Some TV shows look better than others --- West Wing for example CNN is not too bad ---


Clearly the quality of the orginal material also contributes to making a difference no matter what mode you are in.


I also achieved a very stunning picture (Die Hard 1) running from my PC via DVI-D port to the 5002 board when I achieved NR and the 503 locked into DotxDot ---


I would need to have a second copy of Die Hard to running at the same time and toggle between output 2 & 5 on the Pio


As Ericbee has stated -- I think the world class picture will come from


Signal to Pio at native resolution via the DVI port -- wish I had that Leeza to really see the difference.


Bottom line IMO the Faroudja makes a difference with the Pio but everyone will need to decided for themselves -- What worth paid For (WWPF)
 

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Michael M - thanks for your detailed comments on various modes using the Faroudja NR linked to your Pioneer 503CMX.


Does anyone with a Fujitsu 5002 have access to an NR with the new 1366x768 support? If so, can you do a similar report?


/eric
 

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Michael,


Thanks for the information. It is very helpful to hear a fellow 503 owners experiences. Glad to hear the Faroudja will make a significant difference.


Q. Are you running the new NR with the 1280X768 rate or the X720 version?


Greg
 

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I am running at 720p


The only time a have hit true NR is running off my computer


Michael
 
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