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Crazy to get HDTV with SD analog cable?

1016 Views 17 Replies 10 Participants Last post by navychop, Oct 21, 2004

Shaky jake

Discussion Starter · Oct 18, 2004

Newbie, obviously...and still trying to get a handle on what's what. When people talk about SD, I assume they are talking about digital signals delivered in SD. Is that correct?

I'm looking at getting the Hitachi 51S715, or 57S715. It has a built-in HD tuner. I'll get an antenna to receive OTA HD. However, I will do a good bit of watching on SD, analog cable. I just can't bring myself (yet!) to lay out the extra money for digital cable.

Will I be sorely disappointed with the PQ of the analog SD with a big-screen TV? Yes, I've got the big-screen jones...but i don't want to end up kicking myself for dropping 2K and ending up with PQ worse that I have now on my regular-old TV (actually, a fairly new 32"Toshiba). I'm worried that every imperfection in the signal will be magnified on the larger screen, rendering it...unpleasant to watch. If that's the case, I'd rather spend the money on a nice dive trip. But, if better optics, processing, etc on the Hitachi will render a picture at least equal to what I have now...I'll take the plunge. And then I suppose I should ask if the Hitachis I'm thinking of are a good choice for my viewing habits. Obviously DVDs would be an improved experience, but I tend to watch more TV during the week.

Also, I read someone, on some other MB somewhere, say he was able to receive OTA HD from plain old rabbit ears, as he lived close to several signal sources. True? I may be in the same situation.

Appreciate any advice, experience, insight, etc. I've learned a lot lurking on this board for the past several weeks. Glad I found it.

Thanks,

Jake

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1 - 18 of 18 Posts

Jordan420

· #2 · Oct 18, 2004

If you go to www.antennaweb.org you will see what stations near you are broadcasting digital and how close they are.

You should go to a store and view an SD signal on the tv you want to buy

toothy mako

· #3 · Oct 18, 2004

I have the 57S715, and sit just over 8 feet away. At that range, much SD is truly bad--it is even worse on my analog cable than on my D*. HD on D*is awesome, as are most dvds. For me, it's a good tradeoff, but maybe not for you. You'll either need quite a bit more viewing distance, or just get the 51".

Football games are clearly worse on this tv in SD at my viewing distance than on smaller sets. They are borderline viewable. But since D* is piping so many HD games on the ST, it doesn't really matter to me. Again, you may have different preferences.

But, yeah, what Jordan said: go see it at a store, there is no substitute.

Also, for the record, the 57S715 is great. I bought it at Sears, so could have exchanged it for a smaller set if this issue had mattered more to me.

IFLYSWA

· #4 · Oct 18, 2004

Hi,

SD on cable has been a pretty big disappointment for me. I have a Mits WD-62725 DLP, and while HD is simply stunning, SD on cable (*including* non-HD digital cable) is not good. Digital OTA signals seem to be pretty good, even those that are non-HD. Personally, I am thinking very hard about going the D* route....that way I would get all channels digitally. I am currently on Comcast digital cable, and really had no major with PQ on my old Mits 35" CRT. As my salesguy warned me, SD content simply doesn't do all that well on HD-sets, particularly the fixed pixel technologies.....

Hope that helps some...YMMV...

Randy

Slordak

· #5 · Oct 18, 2004

Please note that when people say "SD", they are actually describing a range of programming delivery methods. Remember that even DVDs are in "standard definition", i.e. they do not contain 720 or 1080 lines of information. With that being said, most people are referring to non-DVD content, but this still includes all of these:

Analog SD from cable (channels below 100).

Digital SD from cable (channels above 100).

Digital SD from satellite.

OTA analog broadcasts.

OTA digital broadcasts of standard definition programming.

Depending on the service provider and method of receiving the signal, the perceived quality of these can thus vary widely. Hence, it's somewhat hard (or even deceiving) to lump all standard definition viewing together.

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NVboy

· #6 · Oct 18, 2004

Quote:

Originally posted by IFLYSWA
Hi,

As my salesguy warned me, SD content simply doesn't do all that well on HD-sets, particularly the fixed pixel technologies.....

And yet it can look pretty good. There are way too many variables involved to make a blanket statement.

Shaky,

If your primary concern is SD, why do you want to jump into HDTV if you know SD won't look as good as on the old analog tv? If you do get the set & watch something in HD, SD will only seem to be even more flawed than before.

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IFLYSWA

· #7 · Oct 18, 2004

Quote:

Originally posted by NVboy
And yet it can look pretty good. There are way too many variables involved to make a blanket statement.

True enough...hence the YMMV in my sign off. If I had to peg the biggest factor in the whole thing (and I am talking about analog cable, as the original question referenced), I'd say it is viewing distance. The 12' I have from my set is fine for HD, pretty good for digital OTA, but leaves a bit to be desired for *all non-HD* cable. If I am 3' further back, at my computer desk, all three look better, to varying degrees...again, just my experience....no blanket statement intended.....

Randy

NVboy

· #8 · Oct 18, 2004

Randy,

Have you had Comcast out to see if they can beef up the incoming signal? It wouldn't hurt, plus it's free. Before I had them come out, all of my cable programming was just horrible...almost unwatchable. After they came out, I am seriously impressed. I honestly never dreamed that cable SD would look that good. I just think it is frustrating as hell to have all this wonderful technology, but all of it also has it's faults.

IFLYSWA

· #9 · Oct 18, 2004

Quote:

Originally posted by NVboy
Randy,

Have you had Comcast out to see if they can beef up the incoming signal? It wouldn't hurt, plus it's free. Before I had them come out, all of my cable programming was just horrible...almost unwatchable. After they came out, I am seriously impressed. I honestly never dreamed that cable SD would look that good. I just think it is frustrating as hell to have all this wonderful technology, but all of it also has it's faults.

I haven't yet, but I'll give it a try. I've thought about it several times, but never took the next step. I do have a 4-way amp/splitter that I installed...it adds up to 8db per line. But I think it would definitely be worth having Comcast take a look, at least before chucking it all and going to satellite. I live and die by my ReplayTVs (I am seriously spoiled!), so if I can get my SD looking better I will be one happy camper.

Thanks for the nudge!

Randy

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platypus

· #10 · Oct 18, 2004

Quote:

Originally posted by Slordak
Please note that when people say "SD", they are actually describing a range of programming delivery methods. Remember that even DVDs are in "standard definition", i.e. they do not contain 720 or 1080 lines of information. With that being said, most people are referring to non-DVD content, but this still includes all of these:

Analog SD from cable (channels below 100).

Digital SD from cable (channels above 100).

Digital SD from satellite.

OTA analog broadcasts.

OTA digital broadcasts of standard definition programming.

Depending on the service provider and method of receiving the signal, the perceived quality of these can thus vary widely. Hence, it's somewhat hard (or even deceiving) to lump all standard definition viewing together.

Great breakdown of everything that gets lumped into SD. I was starting to get confused by the use of the term because I thought it only referred to OTA digital broadcasts of standard def. programming. A follow-up question: would you characterize the first four sub-groups in your listing as NTSC and the last one as ATSC? Are the first four sub-groups always 480i and the last one always 480p? Or is 480i also transmitted digitally OTA? Finally, if you have "digital cable," are the channels below 100 still considered "analog SD" or are they "digital SD?"

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Shaky jake

Discussion Starter · #11 · Oct 19, 2004

I appreciate the input from everyone. I suspected the answer would be YMMV, but no harm in asking.

Quote:

Originally posted by NVboy

Shaky,

If your primary concern is SD, why do you want to jump into HDTV if you know SD won't look as good as on the old analog tv?

SD isn't my primary concern, but it is one. I know...life is compromises. But I don't want to drop 2K, and end up...pissed at myself every time I watch ESPN, A&E, TLC, etc (yeah, I've got,...issues

). Thus my dilemma.

Why jump into a big-screen TV? Well... size DOES matter, and I've got to compensate somehow

, so I've got the big-screen jones. OTA HD stuff should look pretty darn good. I've been reading the HD programming forums, and folks in my area (Raleigh/Durham) seem to get pretty good HD reception OTA. DVDs will look pretty darn good. I guess I'm just concerned that the downside will grate on me more than the upside will please me.

And I'm..."frugal" (OK, cheap), so 2K for a toy that gets me pissed at myself some of the time is a good chunk of cash for me to drop. I'll probably just have to see if a I can get a decent-enough idea of SD in a store to either allow me to take the plunge...or get over this jones until I loosen this death grip on my wallet (more "issues").

I'd love to go the D* route...had it when I lived w-a-a-y out in the country, and I hate TWC, but my neighbor's giant tree sits right in the satellite path. 'Course, I was in the tree business when I was younger, and still have all my climbing gear, saw, ropes...maybe if they go on vacation, that tree will end up having a horrible accident...which I will clean up for them being the good neighbor that I am.

Well, I'm sure this was more than anyone cared to read, but I felt compelled to explain myself.

Issues, issues, it sucks I tell ya.

Thanks again to all for the replies.

Jake

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Slordak

· #12 · Oct 19, 2004

Quote:

Originally posted by platypus
Great breakdown of everything that gets lumped into SD. I was starting to get confused by the use of the term because I thought it only referred to OTA digital broadcasts of standard def. programming. A follow-up question: would you characterize the first four sub-groups in your listing as NTSC and the last one as ATSC? Are the first four sub-groups always 480i and the last one always 480p? Or is 480i also transmitted digitally OTA? Finally, if you have "digital cable," are the channels below 100 still considered "analog SD" or are they "digital SD?"

Someone else can answer the questions about whether or not the terms "ATSC" and "NTSC" even apply to cable or satellite reception; they may only apply to antenna (OTA) reception.

With regards to "digital cable", any channel you can tune on a "cable ready" TV without an additional box is standard analog junk. This is typically any and all channels under 100, and is one reason why satellite providers often advertise that they are "all digital". For example, with cable, if you get Food Network via analog, and you upgrade to a digital cable box, you will still be receiving this channel in analog form (i.e. you won't get a separate digital version).

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navychop

· #13 · Oct 19, 2004

Actually, the question you ask is moot. The TVs you mention are CRT based. For less than $2000 that is probably your best choice. The CRT will show SD (analog & otherwise) about as well as it can be shown. When you go to other technologies, with fixed pixel displays, is when you see the degradation in SD. The CRT is not a fixed pixel display and will scan appropriately for the signal with no conversion (scaling). And it's probably got a reasonable HD picture as well. In five years, technology will have changed and prices will have dropped. You can move the Hitachi to another room and get the Gizziefratchit 5000 for your primary TV for a lot less money.

Rabbit ears: If you are close and have a strong signal, the Hitachi models might pick up a local DTV station using rabbit ears, such as the Silver Sensor (I don't recommend the knock-offs). But the "sure thing" - as far as such can be, would be the new LG/Zenith fifth generation ATSC tuner. This new tuner chipset is reputed to be four times as sensitive as current models and better at multi-path rejection. We'll probably start seeing it available in products on the shelf next year. If your TV isn't sensitive enough, and you don't want to put up an attic or outside antenna (which is probably cheaper and easier than you think) then you can add on an external tuner STB later. Perhaps built in to that DVD recorder you'll buy next summer when you toss the VCR......

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edalzell

· #14 · Oct 20, 2004

I just got a Samsung HLP4663W and SD looks fine on it. I was expecting much, much worse, but with no calibration, no bulb burn in and only using component video, SD is more than adequate.

Oh ya, I am in Vancouver, Canada, in case that makes a difference.

jonwww

· #15 · Oct 20, 2004

Quote:

Originally posted by Slordak
Someone else can answer the questions about whether or not the terms "ATSC" and "NTSC" even apply to cable or satellite reception; they may only apply to antenna (OTA) reception.

Correct me if I"m wrong but NTSC is basically just an analog tuner whereas ATSC is a digital tuner.

With regards to "digital cable", any channel you can tune on a "cable ready" TV without an additional box is standard analog junk. This is typically any and all channels under 100, and is one reason why satellite providers often advertise that they are "all digital". For example, with cable, if you get Food Network via analog, and you upgrade to a digital cable box, you will still be receiving this channel in analog form (i.e. you won't get a separate digital version).

The cable co's 'all digital' system is coming soon to some areas. For those people with 'cable direct' hookups(no dig. box) the channels will stay analog..... but those with dig. cable boxes or HD tuners w/cable cards will be seeing all digital.

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jonwww

· #16 · Oct 20, 2004

Quote:

Originally posted by Slordak
Someone else can answer the questions about whether or not the terms "ATSC" and "NTSC" even apply to cable or satellite reception; they may only apply to antenna (OTA) reception.

Correct me if I"m wrong but NTSC is basically just an analog tuner whereas ATSC is a digital tuner.

Quote:

With regards to "digital cable", any channel you can tune on a "cable ready" TV without an additional box is standard analog junk. This is typically any and all channels under 100, and is one reason why satellite providers often advertise that they are "all digital". For example, with cable, if you get Food Network via analog, and you upgrade to a digital cable box, you will still be receiving this channel in analog form (i.e. you won't get a separate digital version).

The cable co's 'all digital' system is coming soon to some areas. For those people with 'cable direct' hookups(no dig. box) the channels will stay analog..... but those with dig. cable boxes or HD tuners w/cable cards will be seeing all digital.

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Slordak

· #17 · Oct 21, 2004

I suppose that means cable companies plan to broadcast separate versions of their analog and digital signals, i.e. duplicate copies of all of the channels below 100? I don't see that there's any other way to do it if they want the ability for folks to continue to use "cable ready" TV sets to tune the analog channels without a box, while at the same time having a full digital version of the channel for those with a box.

In any case, I hadn't heard about that. Sounds like a big waste of bandwidth to me, but I suppose it may help them compete with satellite.

navychop

· #18 · Oct 21, 2004

No- they will have minimal channels below the digital tier. They will put the best channels on digital and "encourage" you to upgrade. $omehow thi$ $eem$ important to them. Each year or so they will move more channels to digital. This is the game plan the cable industry decided upon a few years back.

Why would you think they want people to use cable ready TVs and not their boxes? They charge rent for the boxes and those boxes make it easy for you to order PPV. Anyway, when you get digital cable, you still receive analog cable so little or no duplication is necessary.

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