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Discussion Starter · #1 ·

First, here is my setup.

 

Marantz 1504

Orb Audio (Mod 2) - Left, Center, Right

SVS PB-1000

 

So, in my manual for the Marantz, it allows me to set the crossover for the speakers and subwoofer.

 

Right now, I have the Front and Center crossover set to 120hz and the receiver set to "LFE + Main"

 

I then have the Subwoofer crossover set to 120hz as well.

 

Now the manual doesn't do a great job of explaining exactly what this means (at least for me) and so I have a few questions.

 

If I have the subwoofer crossover set to 120hz, why do I need to also set a crossover level for the Right, Left, and Center?

 

Should the crossover values be equal, or should their be overlap?

 

Any help is appreciated.

 

Thank you,
 

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Setting the xo for the speakers should be base on the speakers lowest extension and then set 10-15 Hz higher. This will prevent small speakers from playing frequencies that they cannot reproduce well. Setting the xo for the subwoofer is done to have the subwoofer takeover playing the LF that the other speakers can't reproduce well. The sub will also play the LFE from the .1 channel on DVD or Blurays. The higher the sub xo, the more likely that the sub can be localized. To prevent this, place the sub near the main speakers.
 

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I've been playing around with the subwoofer crossover the av pre-amp, people have been saying set it to 120hz, irrespective for the other speaker setting, but I find it too boomy. Apparently if you set it to anything lower than 80hz, the LFE content is lost.


I prefer having the sub the same as the others


I can't see any specs of those speakers, probably 160hz or so? (with no +/-3dB spec) so could be anything. Don't believe 80hz bass response.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dargo72  /t/1520558/crossover-question#post_24428366


First, here is my setup.


Marantz 1504

Orb Audio (Mod 2) - Left, Center, Right

SVS PB-1000


So, in my manual for the Marantz, it allows me to set the crossover for the speakers and subwoofer.


Right now, I have the Front and Center crossover set to 120hz and the receiver set to "LFE + Main"


I then have the Subwoofer crossover set to 120hz as well.


Now the manual doesn't do a great job of explaining exactly what this means (at least for me) and so I have a few questions.


If I have the subwoofer crossover set to 120hz, why do I need to also set a crossover level for the Right, Left, and Center?


Should the crossover values be equal, or should their be overlap?


Any help is appreciated.


Thank you,
A "crossover" is a set of filters that direct certain frequencies to certain speakers. A crossover includes a High Pass Filter, (HPF), that allows the high frequencies to "pass" while removing (or redirecting) the low frequencies. In addition, a crossover includes a Low Pass Filter, (LPF), that allows the low frequencies to "pass" while removing, (or redirecting), the higher frequencies. These filters, the HPF and LPF, are not "brick wall" filters that cut the frequencies bluntly at the set frequency. The HPF and LPF have roll-off slopes. These slopes can vary from 6 dB/octave to 48 dB/octave. Most receivers use a 12 dB/octave slope on the speakers and a 24 dB/octave slope on the subwoofer, although this is not a hard and fast rule, and manufacturers are free to use whatever slopes they want. The only exception is a THX certified receiver which is required to use the 12/24 slopes.


When you set a 120 Hz crossover on the speakers, you direct the frequencies above 120 Hz to the speakers and the frequencies below 120 Hz to the subwoofer. Some receivers require you to set the speakers to "Small" to enable the crossovers. Others don't use the "Large/Small" nomenclature, and they'll have a "Full Range" setting or a crossover selection.


There is no "crossover on the subwoofer channel. There is only a Low Pass Filter, and it is only applied the the LFE channel. It is NOT applied to the re-directed bass from the main channels. The LPF for the mains was set when the crossovers were set on those respective channels. When you set the LPF on the LFE channel you cut the frequencies above the set frequency, and this is a "brick wall" filter. Here is a pic of different LPF's and a Brick wall LPF of LFE:




In your case, (assuming you've set your speaker to "Small" if necessary), you've set the crossovers on your speakers optimally according to Orb. http://www.audioholics.com/soundbar-and-satellite-speaker-reviews/orb-audio-peoples-choice-mod2-video
Quote:
Frequency Response: 80Hz - 20,000Hz (120Hz-18,000Hz optimal)

The LPF of LFE setting of 120 Hz is also just fine, although you could consider lowering it to 80 Hz if you find the sub localizable.


Good luck and enjoy your system.



Craig
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dargo72  /t/1520558/crossover-question/0_100#post_24428366

 

First, here is my setup.

 

Marantz 1504

Orb Audio (Mod 2) - Left, Center, Right

SVS PB-1000

 

So, in my manual for the Marantz, it allows me to set the crossover for the speakers and subwoofer.

 

Right now, I have the Front and Center crossover set to 120hz and the receiver set to "LFE + Main"

 

I then have the Subwoofer crossover set to 120hz as well.

 

Now the manual doesn't do a great job of explaining exactly what this means (at least for me) and so I have a few questions.

 

If I have the subwoofer crossover set to 120hz, why do I need to also set a crossover level for the Right, Left, and Center?

 

Should the crossover values be equal, or should their be overlap?

 

Any help is appreciated.

 

Thank you,
 

You should bypass the crossover on the subwoofer if possible, and if it is not possible, you should set the subwoofer's crossover to its highest setting.  The reason is, you are using the crossover in the receiver to properly direct the frequencies, and if you use the subwoofer's crossover, too, you will affect the crossover slope in a manner that is virtually certain to be bad.  So you presently have the subwoofer set wrong.  Bypass its crossover and just use the crossover in the receiver.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper  /t/1520558/crossover-question#post_24429189


if you use the subwoofer's crossover, too, you will affect the crossover slope in a manner that is virtually certain to be bad.  
An old wife's tale this is, I'm afraid. The effect of using the sub low pass filter in conjunction with the AVR crossover is to increase the low pass slope. That may not be of any benefit, especially when the AVR crossover is set to 80Hz or lower. But a higher crossover can let too much directional frequency content through. Using the low pass filter on the sub to increase the low pass slope will reduce that directional frequency content. You shouldn't take the sub low pass filter lower than that on the AVR, and for that matter you shouldn't take it any lower than required to get the best sound out of the system. But if using it does sound better than not then you should.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·

OK, great explanations.

 

To be clear, I am not using the subwoofers bypass, rather both the speaker crossover and LFE crossover are controlled via the Marantz.

 

So I'm clear, the LFE crossover is only used when their is a specific .1 channel.  The rest of the time, the speaker crossover is used... correct?

 

Also, I think originally the Audysses (sp?) had the crossover at 150hz, but I changed it to 120Hz.....

 

At least now I understand what the settings mean and can play around a little bit to see what sounds the best to me.

 

Thank you,
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dargo72  /t/1520558/crossover-question#post_24429241


OK, great explanations.


To be clear, I am not using the subwoofers bypass, rather both the speaker crossover and LFE crossover are controlled via the Marantz.


So I'm clear, the LFE crossover is only used when their is a specific .1 channel.  The rest of the time, the speaker crossover is used... correct?
Yes, but virtually all contemporary movies have an LFE (.1) channel. 2-channel music does not, but most everything else does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dargo72  /t/1520558/crossover-question#post_24429241


Also, I think originally the Audysses (sp?) had the crossover at 150hz, but I changed it to 120Hz.....


At least now I understand what the settings mean and can play around a little bit to see what sounds the best to me.


Thank you,
Generally, you don't want to lower the crossovers set by Audyssey. Audyssey measures the in-room response of the speakers and finds their in-room -3 dB point. It then sets the crossovers to the next-highest crossover. It won't provide any room correction below the -3 dB point because the only "correction" it could do would be to boost the response. This won't help and it is potentially dangerous for your speakers, so Audyssey won't do it. So, lowering the crossovers below where Audyssey set them is not advised. However, if subwoofer localization becomes an issue with the higher crossovers, you can try Bill's suggestion of using the sub's LPF. If that doesn't help enough, and the lower crossovers sound better to you, then go ahead. Just be aware of the compromises involved.


Craig
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice  /t/1520558/crossover-question/0_100#post_24429225

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper  /t/1520558/crossover-question#post_24429189


if you use the subwoofer's crossover, too, you will affect the crossover slope in a manner that is virtually certain to be bad.  
An old wife's tale this is, I'm afraid. The effect of using the sub low pass filter in conjunction with the AVR crossover is to increase the low pass slope. That may not be of any benefit, especially when the AVR crossover is set to 80Hz or lower. But a higher crossover can let too much directional frequency content through. Using the low pass filter on the sub to increase the low pass slope will reduce that directional frequency content. You shouldn't take the sub low pass filter lower than that on the AVR, and for that matter you shouldn't take it any lower than required to get the best sound out of the system. But if using it does sound better than not then you should.
 

It is always a bad thing because it will cause a dip in the frequency response.  Of course, as you say, if one has to set the crossover very high, then one will be able to hear where the subwoofer is located, which is a bad thing, and consequently one might prefer the dip in response to that other problem.  But it is trading one problem for another, and is not "an old wife's tale" that using both crossovers is doing something bad.  It is a plain matter of fact that it will tend to cause a dip in the frequency response, which is always a bad thing in itself.  If one prefers that problem for another one, then one may choose it, but it is still a bad thing that one is choosing.

 

The proper solution for a problem with being able to locate the subwoofer due to having to have the crossover too high, due to the inability of the main speakers to handle low enough bass, is to replace the main speakers with something that can.  Otherwise, the sound will be compromised, one way or another.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper  /t/1520558/crossover-question#post_24429766


 It is a plain matter of fact that it will tend to cause a dip in the frequency response
It doesn't with my system, and I can assure you that I know exactly what its response is. There is no reason why it would cause a dip in anyone else's frequency response either.
 

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What's the solution to not setting LFE to 120hz, and thus losing information?


ie if you set 5.0 speakers to 40hz, say you have 5 identical floorstander speakers, and then you set subwoofer to 40hz, you would lose 40-120hz from the LFE channel. But if you set LFE to 120hz it's way too boomy and you get overlapping bass.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom  /t/1520558/crossover-question#post_24429852


What's the solution to not setting LFE to 120hz, and thus losing information?


ie if you set 5.0 speakers to 40hz, say you have 5 identical floorstander speakers, and then you set subwoofer to 40hz, you would lose 40-120hz from the LFE channel. But if you set LFE to 120hz it's way too boomy and you get overlapping bass.
There is no "overlapping" bass. You are just reproducing the bass as the recording engineer intended. If it's too boomy, that is an issue with subwoofer integration. You likely have a peak in the subwoofer FR somewhere above 40 Hz. Can you measure your response?


Craig
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice  /t/1520558/crossover-question/0_100#post_24429821

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper  /t/1520558/crossover-question#post_24429766


 It is a plain matter of fact that it will tend to cause a dip in the frequency response
It doesn't with my system, and I can assure you that I know exactly what its response is. There is no reason why it would cause a dip in anyone else's frequency response either.
 

So you believe that the slope of a crossover does not matter?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper  /t/1520558/crossover-question#post_24429766


It is always a bad thing because it will cause a dip in the frequency response.
Why would it "always" do that? I can see it possibly causing a phase issue, especially if the slope of the LPF in the sub is different than the slope of the LPF in the receiver. And I would only do this if the sub's LPF is set to the SAME frequency as the LPF in the receiver. If that is done, and the LPF slopes match, then the only effect would be to increase the slope of the combined roll off. There would be no phase issue and there would be no dip in the FR, (unless you're depending on the sub's response ABOVE the crossover frequency, which you should not be doing.)


Craig
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom  /t/1520558/crossover-question/0_100#post_24429852


What's the solution to not setting LFE to 120hz, and thus losing information?


ie if you set 5.0 speakers to 40hz, say you have 5 identical floorstander speakers, and then you set subwoofer to 40hz, you would lose 40-120hz from the LFE channel. But if you set LFE to 120hz it's way too boomy and you get overlapping bass.
 

The crossover setting has to do with the bass of the main channels.  Thus, the 40 Hz setting should be a question of where the bass goes from the main channels, and have no affect whatsoever on the LFE channel, which should be sent to the subwoofer (if one is connected at all).  If your receiver has an LFE lowpass crossover as well, then it should be set at 120 Hz (and really, there should be no setting for this at all, just for the bass management of the main channels).  See:

 

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/74454-Bass-Management-and-LFE-NOT-the-same-thing-

 

You also should be having the LFE go only to the subwoofer, in virtually all cases (not "Both", as some receivers allow for people who like boomy bass).
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper  /t/1520558/crossover-question#post_24429893


So you believe that the slope of a crossover does not matter?
It matters a lot, especially if it takes a higher slope than the AVR alone has to give the desired result. That's the reason why LFE content is brickwalled at 120Hz on the LFE channel at mixdown, and even with that being in place most producers don't put much content above 80Hz on the LFE track.
Quote:
If that is done, and the LPF slopes match, then the only effect would be to increase the slope of the combined roll off. There would be no phase issue and there would be no dip in the FR, (unless you're depending on the sub's response ABOVE the crossover frequency, which you should not be doing.
+1, but even if the LP frequency of the sub is higher it still won't cause an issue, it will just result in the summed slopes above that frequency and that of the AVR crossover alone below that. What happens is exactly the same as using EQ, except in this case the EQ is for all intents and purposes a high shelf cut with a very low corner frequency, and it's only applied to the subwoofer, not the entire system.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper  /t/1520558/crossover-question#post_24429921


The crossover setting has to do with the bass of the main channels.  Thus, the 40 Hz setting should be a question of where the bass goes from the main channels, and have no affect whatsoever on the LFE channel, which should be sent to the subwoofer (if one is connected at all).  If your receiver has an LFE lowpass crossover as well, then it should be set at 120 Hz (and really, there should be no setting for this at all, just for the bass management of the main channels).  See:

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/74454-Bass-Management-and-LFE-NOT-the-same-thing-


You also should be having the LFE go only to the subwoofer, in virtually all cases (not "Both", as some receivers allow for people who like boomy bass).

I understand if you set 5.0 speakers to 80hz,
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom  /t/1520558/crossover-question#post_24429940


I understand if you set 5.0 speakers to 80hz,
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom  /t/1520558/crossover-question/0_100#post_24429940

 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack D Ripper  /t/1520558/crossover-question#post_24429921


The crossover setting has to do with the bass of the main channels.  Thus, the 40 Hz setting should be a question of where the bass goes from the main channels, and have no affect whatsoever on the LFE channel, which should be sent to the subwoofer (if one is connected at all).  If your receiver has an LFE lowpass crossover as well, then it should be set at 120 Hz (and really, there should be no setting for this at all, just for the bass management of the main channels).  See:

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/entries/74454-Bass-Management-and-LFE-NOT-the-same-thing-


You also should be having the LFE go only to the subwoofer, in virtually all cases (not "Both", as some receivers allow for people who like boomy bass).

I understand if you set 5.0 speakers to 80hz,
 

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subwoofer LPF effects music from CD's. So if I play a CD fiddling with alters the amount of bass on the sub, 120hz is too boomy.


For movies that's different say if 99% of movies go upto 100hz on subwoofer channel then 120hz setting wouldn't annoy me.
 
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