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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I started a quest for my next display about 2 months ago. I was almost sold on the next display would be digital. After looking at numerous sets of all types I've decided digital doesn't cut it - FOR ME. This is my opinion only. While the digital technologies have merits and have gotten better, the CRT still look better to me. Please this is my opinion only, I don't want to start the digital v.s. CRT stuff again.


My issue is that I've never owned a CRT front projector before. I'm looking into getting my first and I would like to keep my cost low for the first set. I want to use it as a learning device before I try to jump into a larger set which will eventually go into the home theater.


After doing some research I was looking at the following 2 models:


Sony VPH-127X

Barco Graphics 800


Here are the questions:

1. Trying to stay under the $1000 limit, these I can pick up for about $500-$800 used depending on case condition and tube wear. Are these good units for that price? They appear quite similar as far as specs.

2. They are both speced as having MAX resolution as 1600x1200. Can I use the full resolution? I would like to drive that resolution with a PC for graphics applications(need good refresh rate). I understand the issue wrt/ burn in and PCs.

3. Looks like most of the used PJs under $1000 are ES focus, not EM. My understanding is that that will make focusing more difficult, and may not hold focus/convergence as well as EM? Again, I'm new here so please help me understand if I have this wrong.

4. HDTV - both set should be capable of handling all the HDTV signals upto 1080i/60, correct? I'm not concerned about 1080p since I don't have a source that outputs 1080p(scaler or other). Besides, I don't think the RGB bandwidth for these sets will support that, correct?

5. The room is light controlled, so I'm not so worried about ambient light. Screen size is unknown and I will probably have to vary it to determine what works best. What is the maximum *reasonable* size for this category projector? I understand this is subjective, but suggestions are welcome.

6. Would these be good projectors to start with, to learn on, tinker with, etc...? If not, other recommendations?


Thanks...


Brian
 

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Hi Brian


well firstly where do you live? There are great technicians and people all over and if you are lucky someone near to you will show you how great CRT pj are.


I have a barco data 800. My first pj..I purchased from Curt Palme about a year and a half ago. if you go to curtpalme dot com he has a FAQ section which is good.


Personally...I would spend a bit more and get an EM pj. I cheaped out and got the bd800 and well, even though the picture is good, I now desire something better. But if money is a bit of an issue...Barco 800 is good. you can't scale it up to about 720p as the max.


pm me and I can forward you a set up manual for barco 800 and this will also help determine the screen size.


the more you tune your pj the better you'll get at it. definitely invest in a video set up disc such as Avia which helps in getting the colour and black levels.


but from a beginner, the barco wasn't to bad to adjust just be prepared to spend like 8hrs on your first try.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
thanks for the information. I read a lot of the info on Curt's site, not all, but quite a bit. I know I will want something better down the road, and that will be the upgrade that ends up in the theater. For now I really want to keep it in-expensive, just to learn on. Sound like the Barco worked good for you.


Did you mean that you can get 720p from the Barco? If so, then 1080i should be no problem either.

What about the computer resolution? Have you tried that?


I don't have a problem putting in the time to adjust, and configure it, that's part of learning for me... I don't want to spend ALL my time doing it tho. :)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkobus
I started a quest for my next display about 2 months ago. I was almost sold on the next display would be digital. After looking at numerous sets of all types I've decided digital doesn't cut it - FOR ME. This is my opinion only. While the digital technologies have merits and have gotten better, the CRT still look better to me. Please this is my opinion only, I don't want to start the digital v.s. CRT stuff again.


My issue is that I've never owned a CRT front projector before. I'm looking into getting my first and I would like to keep my cost low for the first set. I want to use it as a learning device before I try to jump into a larger set which will eventually go into the home theater.


After doing some research I was looking at the following 2 models:


Sony VPH-127X

Barco Graphics 800


Here are the questions:

1. Trying to stay under the $1000 limit, these I can pick up for about $500-$800 used depending on case condition and tube wear. Are these good units for that price? They appear quite similar as far as specs.

2. They are both speced as having MAX resolution as 1600x1200. Can I use the full resolution? I would like to drive that resolution with a PC for graphics applications(need good refresh rate). I understand the issue wrt/ burn in and PCs.

3. Looks like most of the used PJs under $1000 are ES focus, not EM. My understanding is that that will make focusing more difficult, and may not hold focus/convergence as well as EM? Again, I'm new here so please help me understand if I have this wrong.

4. HDTV - both set should be capable of handling all the HDTV signals upto 1080i/60, correct? I'm not concerned about 1080p since I don't have a source that outputs 1080p(scaler or other). Besides, I don't think the RGB bandwidth for these sets will support that, correct?

5. The room is light controlled, so I'm not so worried about ambient light. Screen size is unknown and I will probably have to vary it to determine what works best. What is the maximum *reasonable* size for this category projector? I understand this is subjective, but suggestions are welcome.

6. Would these be good projectors to start with, to learn on, tinker with, etc...? If not, other recommendations?


Thanks...


Brian
Neither of those projectors has a resolution of 1600x1200.....not even close. FORGET about 1080p, but of course they will both do 1080i. Also, both of those projectors have ES focus, NOT EM, as you pointed out, however, ES projectors aren't "harder" to focus, but if the tubes have high hours, they tend to not focus sharp anymore, which wasn't the case when they were new.


When you say 127x, there are BIG differences between a 1270 and 1272. A 1252 is better than a 1270. Although the condition of the case is usually an indication of the type of life the projector had, the tube condition is the MOST important thing, but as I've already stated, an ES tube can "look" perfect, but not focus well, so be careful unless you can check the projector in person.


My personal opinion is that you would probably be better off with an Electrohome ECP in perfect shape (if you can find one) than a 127x with bad blue and green tubes. For a little more money, you might find a Marquee 8000 or NEC PG, which have EM focus.
 

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BKOBUS,


I think you are doing the right thing to start small to get your feet wet and lean as much as you can before investing a lot of money. The Son1271 and 1272 are great starter units that will handle 480i, 480p and 1080i. It would take an 8" or 9" CRT to handle 720p but, most set-top-boxes want to convert all HD to 1080i or 720p so you can simply select 1080i. The 1600 x 1200 is just a spec. number. Do not count on it. As far a size goes - the most conservative people would limit a 9" CRT to no more than an 80 inch screen. Most of us routinely push even 7" units to 100" diagonal screens and 9" CRT's to 120" diagonals. There is no question that conservatively sized screens will look better. If you can limit yourself to 80 inches for a 7" screen - you will get a great image.


Drop me an email at the below address - I will give you some valuable advice. I have been exactly where you are and can help.


Ed
[email protected]
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
techman - thanks for the advice I will look into the ECP/PG models. The specs I saw were on projectorspecification.com. Correct me here, but what you are saying is that while the speced resolution is 1600x1200 I cannot expect to obtain that. Given that, how can I determine what is the max resolution I can push from a PC? Sorry for not being specific enough on the 127x part, and thanks for the hint on the 1252 v.s. 1270.


Ed - thanks for the info. as well. I don't know that I wanna pay the extra for a 8" EM CRT at this point. Like I said, the next PJ will definitely be in that class for the theater, this one just needs to help me learn(and still look decent :) ). I was going to stay in the 80" to 90" screen size for default, but would like to see for myself the effects of going larger(to get an idea how the picture degrades).


I often see comments about 8" or 9" needed to do 720p, but isn't it the horz. scan frequency that determines what inputs a display can resolve? 720p requires about 47Khz to display, as I understand it. the Sony 12721/1272 are speced over 70Khz so even tho they are 7" shouldn't they be able to deliver a 720p signal. I understand your statement was probably just a generalization that 8" and 9" will get 720p standard, but some 7" should be able to do it as well? Or is there some other limitation preventing the 7"s from 720p?
 

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There are many factors that determine what a projector can properly display. The 1271 and 1272 have 75 and 85 MHz bandwidths respectively. However, it's the combination of the resolution, scanrate (Vertical) and bandwidth that will determine what horizontal frequency is necessary. Some people complain of flicker at 48Hz & 60Hz scanrates.


The specs posted aren't all accurate. The 07MSP tubes used in the 1252/1272 can resolve more than the 07MP tubes used in the other 12xx units. Strictly speaking, the 1272 is the only 12xx unit that can display 1280x720 @60Hz, which requires an 83MHz bandwidth and an H-rate of 43.2Khz. If you wnt to a 72Hz scanrate, the bandwidth required would be nearly 100MHz.


You should try to view the projector you're buying if possible.
 

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I have a BG800 and quite frankly I love it. It's plenty sharp for me. I run it at 1280x720 60hz and everything looks great. My "screen" is a 4x8ft piece of parkland plastic with about 3 inches on both ends not being used. DVDs look great. HD looks awesome. My projector looks as clear as any HD TV I've seen at any electronics store except the picture is 4X larger. To get EM focus you'll pay twice what a ES set costs. Maybe down the road I too will upgrade but I feel NO need right now. I've had mine for about 2 years now and every time I watch it I smile.


Once you get a projector you'll NEVER be able to watch a "regular" TV again.
 

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Have you considered a digital? :)


Actually, if you know you are going to upgrade, I'm not sure it is worth the expense of shipping your starter unit, then selling it, and then paying to ship a new one. You can get some pretty good 8" EM units with just a bit of tube wear without going much over $1000.


Dave
 

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What Bruce said - go an entry level Marquee or a NEC PG. I believe the Marquee is easier to setup, although I have never seen one (none around my neck of the woods).


If you're patient you will be able to pick one up with good tubes with your budget.


There is no reason to buy an ES focus pj these days - 2-3 years ago-yup, now-no.


You should add your location to your profile, it helps people help you :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I have considered digital. Matter of fact I figured digital was going to be my next set until I started

looking at them. I didn't like what I saw, just my opinion.


I have patience, and I can wait for a better model in my price point. However, the $600-$800 price

for the set I mentioned seemed quite reasonable and the tubes were good - I trust Curt's rating on

his units. It looks like it will cost me over $1000 to get into the EM focus units(Marquee/NEC-PG).

I also don't want to start off by having to replace tubes right away - don't think I'm up to that yet.

I would like to get comfortable with something before I start ripping it apart to replace/tweak

things.


I do understand the recommendation on going that route tho, and appreciate the recommendation.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkobus
I have considered digital. Matter of fact I figured digital was going to be my next set until I started

looking at them. I didn't like what I saw, just my opinion.
Trust me, I was just joking. :)
 

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I'm so hurt, 6 people hace replied to this thread and NO ONE has mentioned me yet :( ?I knew Mead sounded familiar, I haven't been there since I raced my bicyclye in the Criterium series, it was on that motorcycle track by I-25. That was 4 years (and 30 pounds) ago :D .

I think you owe it to yourself to see what an 8" EM focus, Mike Parker modded M8500 can do, you're welcomed to see it at my place in Brighton. I know a machine like this is way out of your price range, but I know a guy who knows a guy who can hook you up up with a Marqueee 8000 for about a grand ;) Not to mention all the set-up help and Sage advice you could ever want.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
ahh, thought so, but wasn't sure... There seems to be a strong contingent that defends digital over

CRT, but I just can't see it yet. I did see the Qualia006 properly calibrated and setup about a week

ago, and that set looked pretty darn good(for digital). Best digital I've seen so far. Would like to

see the Qualia004 that's supposed to be pretty good as well. Both are a bit out of my current price

range - but price will drop as SXRD grows.


I was thinking about contacting Curt Palme about getting a set from him. He seems to have an

excellent reputation around here and quite credible. Anyone have experience buying a set from

him?
 
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