[TomTom]

Hello Everyone,


I'm new to this forum, but from what I see it seems like the place to be!


I've finally scraped together enough money for a scaler/video processor, and so far I've tried out the CS-HD (good value for money, not the last word in Picture Quality) and a Lumagen model - can't remember the model # (which I was told will be replaced soon with a new model).

From what I've read in this forum, and on the Crystalio website, it sounds like a very capable machine.

My only question is - since this is a Faroudja FLI2300-based scaler, will it have the same macroblocking problems as my Samsung 931 DVD player, and my neighbor's Denon's 5900?


I've read the Crystalio thread(s) here, but there is no mention of this. Is the manufacturer aware of this issue with this chip?


Anybody own or tested a Crystalio that can say for sure?


Thank you all for any comments.


TT

 

[YellowCows]

Hi Tom!


Welcome, AVS is the best AV forum I've been on for sure!


Surprisingly enough, I've recently asked Kris Deering a similar question about Faroudja 2300 players and scalers (he's one of the better-informed ppl on this forum, and a reviewer for Secrets of Home Theater & Hi Fi - an invaluable resource for us all - Click to check it out ).


AFAIK, the Crystalio is the only scaler available today that utilizes this chip, and from what I'm told, any machine with this chip, whether player, processor or display device, is liable to exhibit Macroblocking. Players from Denon, Samsung and Zenith all do, though, according to Kris : 'Meridian G-Series DVD players use this same chip and don't show any of the same problems'.


Perhaps because the Crystalio is very customizable, the effect will not be present. I am not the one to ask about that, though.


I know that the PMS Video team (the mfr) frequent this forum, so hopefully you can get it from the horse's mouth!


HTH


Moory

 

[TomTom]

that was quick !


Thx, Moory. I hope the Pms (?) guys respond.

 

[[email protected]]

We didn't experience macroblocking with Crystalio. May be anyone who has seen Crystalio in action could also comment.


[email protected]

 

[Alex Simon]

We're a Crystalio reseller FYI, but I thought I'd post because customers wont have had much chance to play yet.

I'm particularly annoyed by blocking on any device (big improvement with the Radeon 9600 over previous models for example) and I haven't noticed blocking at all on Crystalio. It's every bit as smooth as TheaterTek/DXVA/Radeon 9600/Barco Graphics 808 which was our previous benchmark.


The implementation of the DCDi chips is very important, I'm sure that a standalone scaler will always be able to do a much better job than chips in other devices.


Hope that helps

Alex

 

[Li On]

Hi,


I think those "macroblocking" artifact is cased by the DVD player MPEG2 decoder. It has nothing to do with the deinterlacer (FLI2300).


regards,


Li On

 

[napp]

Quote:

Originally posted by Li On Hi, I think those "macroblocking" artifact is cased by the DVD player MPEG2 decoder. It has nothing to do with the deinterlacer (FLI2300). regards, Li On

Right, a dvd player is a thing and a high quality videoprocessor is another.


I've seen Crystalio here in EU and it's silky smooth, no blocking, no artefacts, excellent!


Regards, napp

 

[ColinH]

Quote:

Originally posted by napp Right, a dvd player is a thing and a high quality videoprocessor is another. I've seen Crystalio here in EU and it's silky smooth, no blocking, no artefacts, excellent! Regards, napp

Ditto.


I've owned a Crystalio for nearly a month now and have never seen this artefact.


Colin

 

[JeffY]

Colin,


I find it very unlikely that you can't see blocking while watching Sky Digital or some DVDs, the question is if it is showing more blocking than it should. That is very hard to gage.

 

[napp]

Quote:

Originally posted by JeffY Colin, I find it very unlikely that you can't see blocking while watching Sky Digital or some DVDs, the question is if it is showing more blocking than it should. That is very hard to gage.

Jeffy, please, could you explain what kind of blocking you're referring to? Maybe the one caused by bad software or low bitrate satellite channels? If the problem resides in the source NO scaler will be able to hide it.


napp

 

[YellowCows]

From what I understand, the blocking being referred to here is specifically the phenomenon reported by users of FLI23xx-equipped players such as the 5900 from Denon, which has been discussed at length here on AVS.


'Macroblocking' is supposedly where dark areas of the picture appear blocky and noisy, distorting shadow detail. It can be hardly seen in bright scenes. While there seems to be a general consensus that the 23xx chip is not introducing this noise, it has been suggested by many that it emphasizes these MPEG artifacts to the point that they detract noticeably from what is otherwise an excellent image.


Macroblocking here is not to be confused with general artifacting due to low bitrates (such as those from many digital broadcasts) and badly mastered DVD's.

Quote:

Originally posted by Li On Hi, I think those "macroblocking" artifact is cased by the DVD player MPEG2 decoder. It has nothing to do with the deinterlacer (FLI2300). Li On

Actually, this issue has been linked directly to this chipset. The MPEG decoder is not the culprit here, as this 'defect' was noted only on progressive and/or upscaled video which has been process by the FLI2300. Interlaced video from the players concerned did not display the macroblocking. Further, the three players I've mentioned above all have different MPEG decoders, and share only the Faroudja deinterlacer, each suffering equally from Macroblocking.


In fact, Denon (v. progressive company that they are) are currently working with Stacey Spears and Faroudja themselves to come up with a workaround. If it were the MPEG decoder at fault, they would be working with ESS (suppliers of their mpeg chippery).


I must say, I am no expert on the fine points of macroblocking, but there's plenty of info around in this forum. Certainly, those who have complained of it in their machines liken it to the nuisance-factor of CUE, so it's not to be sniffed at by any means...


Moory

 

[JeffY]

Quote:

Originally posted by napp Jeffy, please, could you explain what kind of blocking you're referring to? Maybe the one caused by bad software or low bitrate satellite channels? If the problem resides in the source NO scaler will be able to hide it. napp

They are generally linked, digital adjustments to the original source can make the blocking/compression artefacts more visible, hence it becomes more of a problem. Scalers can hide problems in the original source using a variety of techniques such as de-blocking. Radeon graphics cards can do this.

 

[ColinH]

Quote:

Originally posted by JeffY Colin, I find it very unlikely that you can't see blocking while watching Sky Digital or some DVDs, the question is if it is showing more blocking than it should. That is very hard to gage.

Well hey I call it as I see it - I don't sit there examining my picture with a magnifying glass - we use it for our daily viewing and movies. I have a good DVD player (Tag McLaren DVD32) connected via analogue. I've not noticed anything at all, which I guess is how it should be

 

[JeffY]

Sorry Colin but if you can't see blocking artefacts on Sky Digital your eye sight can't be very good. You are the first person I have ever come across that can't see it.

 

[mburnstein]

Please comment on this thread, as what is described here is what I was seeing with my pioneer 503 plasma panel.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...hreadid=406184


Note, I also see this (The dark area surrounding the character Jack was anything but dark. I noticed a halo of swirlies and floating blocks of pixels in the area surrounding the illuminated character, in an otherwise dark scene) with the panel without using the outboard scaler. I see it with the DSS VGA output scaled to 1080i showing SDTV shows as well as S-video output from the DSS straight into panel.

 

[ColinH]

Well I didn't think the question was asking if I'd ever seen artefacts on Sky or not?

 

[JeffY]

The question was do you see macroblocking on the Crystallio?, how do you know what is a source problem and what is the DVD player/Scaler makeing the problem more visible than it should be?

 

[ColinH]

Quote:

Originally posted by JeffY The question was do you see macroblocking on the Crystallio?

Exactly, and my answer was (and still is) "No".


I didn't really think TomTom was after an in-depth discussion of the merits (or not) of the UK Sky digital system as he was asking with regards to his DVD player, but if it REALLY bothers you that much (as it obviously does), I'll qualify my statement:


No I've not seen any macroblocking artefacts whilst watching my DVDs in the last 4 weeks, since I've had my Crystalio. I can't comment on UK Sky Digital as I obviously can't tell source macroblocking from that potentially introduced by the Crystalio. If someone else would like to comment on watching UK Sky SD sources, then please feel free.


If you'd like to check up on me further (I'm getting worried now), I could probably sort out a list of the DVDs we've been watching, but I'm not really sure if "MILF Hunter: the return to Soddom City" is available any more

 

[JeffY]

Colin no need to get personal, if you want to help, simply watch a DVD which shows some blocking arfefacts such as Monsters Inc (R1) with and without the Crystalio and let us know if its better , worse or the same with the scaler in place. Or have you never seen blocking artefacts in DVDs either?

 

[TomTom]

WHEW!


Thank you so very much to all who contributed. I thought I would get a couple of replies, tops! I certainly understand now that the macroblocking issue is not as cut-and-dry as I thought.


I just want to say that it was not my intention at all to start a heated debate. I'm a member of some other forums (not AV-related) and I've seen how ugly things can get, which I sincerely hope doesn't happen here.


Jeffy - you make some excellent points. You seem to know a lot more about this issue than I do. The test disc idea is a great suggestion.


ColinH - as you own a Crystalio yourself, I believe you if you say there are no artefacts. If there are known DVD's that exhibit this problem (I seem to see it on all discs via DVI from my Samsung 931), such as Monsters Inc, could you please test them for this effect, especially dark scenes?


Guys, please don't be mad at each other. You both make a lot of sense, and I don't think any points made conflict with each other.


Thanks again


TT