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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've heard rumors of no new DirecTV STB's with firewire. Currently there is no STB (besides the 169time thing, which is insanely priced in my opinion) with firewire out. The only way to record HDTV at the moment is with either a firewire or 8VSB rf output - neither of which any current STB has. I know about the Dish 5000, but I'm talking about DirecTV, and I'm talking about equipment that is currently available (they are even talking about making it so the 5000 doesn't work, am I right?).


Are any of you worried? I know some people have good recording rigs going, and thats great, but I just don't care about anything on OTA TV. I want to tape HBO and Showtime movies, and I want to tape HDNet. Not only for timeshifting, but for archiving, to watch it again later, perhaps with friends.


Now.. don't get started with me on any ethical issues of taping off of satellite. They offer PVR's for SD material, and sell VCR's by the truckload. And don't give me any "the studios don't want you to have a near-master-quality copy.." or any crap like that.


This seems to be a disturbing trend. It appears to me that they are trying to edge out the PVR/VCR market and using digitalTV as the vehicle. Are any of you worried? I am, and I think you should be. I'm hoping the market corrects this behavior when the first STB with firewire comes out, and everyone buys one, and everyone ignores the ones without firewire. Oh, how I hope this happens. I will buy one.


Tell me your thoughts. Thanks.
 

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Dylan,


You already have the DTC-100, so you're already half way there.


Suggest you proceed with the 169time mod now; can make up for the mod cost by purchasing the Mits D-VHS for ~$500.

You'll then be sitting pretty for the DirecTV recording upgrade when it's completed--which should be "soon."


You can be certain that this forum is being monitored by the powers that be.

If sufficient demand for a firewire outputting satellite HD STB is demonstrated here they will certainly take notice.


AFAIK DirecTV still has no plans to allow its STB makers to feature IEEE1394 ports although Samsung for one,and probably others would badly like to.
 

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Whats too expense when one only has one choice in the world? If this was easy, others would have already done it.


dave
 

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I think D* will wise up once the Digital cable crowd release their firewire STB's at the end of this year.


Competition is a wonderful thing.


--Rick
 

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Keep in mind that a firewire/1394 port on any STB does not mean an open invetation to record anything. Any 1394 port will have 5C copy protection. That means the content owner has the ultimate say in how it is allowed to be copied if at all.


Mark Cuban has publically said phooey with this copy protection stuff. So HDNET would be open to record and distribute. HBO, Showtime are questionable. They are later in the distribution chain, many months after rental and sales of a movie so they may allow personal copies. PPV would probably not allow any copies except perhaps a one time viewing. Of course all this is speculation of how the movie cahnnels will apply copy protection.


So getting the physical 1394 port is only half the battle. We need to make sure copy protection is used fairly.


The 169time option is assumed to be immune to copy control techniques but time and tests will tell.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by h2ofun
Whats too expense when one only has one choice in the world? If this was easy, others would have already done it.


dave
From my perspective, and I bet I am not the only one, the idea of dealing with tapes, a VCR, timers and dealing with IR repeaters to send start and stop commands from a STB to a VCR is just not worth it even if it was to record in 1080p. I know other feel differently, ergo there are folks who are crazy enough to go out and have their dtc100s modified with firewire connections with the hope that some day they may get the ability to spend an other few hundreds bucks for a module that will let the record D*, just so they can record a movie or show off of HBO, SHO or HDNET, all of which are shown 20 some times in a month anyway. All of this on the oldest STB out there and with equipment that may be replaced by D* if the E* merger goes through. To me that is just too painful of an exercise to go through.


For me and again I bet I am the vast majority I just want a PVR like a DirecTiVo for HD. Something that will allow me to time shift some key shows and movies so they are convenient for me to watch when I want to watch them. I personally could care less about building a library of tapes, I would just prefer purchasing them on a DVD format if a HD format ever comes out.


At what ever price 169 charges is too expensive for me because if for no other reason it is just too inconvenient for taste and it provides little to no value based on my needs. I just hope that a TiVo or a TiVo like company comes out with a HD PVR for D*. Hell 99% of the technology is there, they just need to pull it together. A directvio can record a data stream off the Sat, it doesn't seem like it would be that hard for them to put in a HD decoder and perhaps add the ability to pick up OTA 8vsb. Sigh, it seams so close, I wish they would just do it.


Regards,


Brian
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
h2ofun - I got my TV for $1450. I got my STB for $325. I got my DVD player for $200. These are what I would call "high-value" items because they provide alot of ability and alot of quality for a very small price. A mod to a $325 STB that costs $799 isn't what I would call high-value. On top of that a VCR that costs another $1100 (I want to be able to play D-Theater if I'm going to go DVHS), and we're talking the cost of every other component in my HT combined just to record HD, and only OTA HD at the moment at that.


Where's the value? Answer: it's nonexistant.


Right now 169time is the only game in town, but the trouble is, I don't know if it's a game I want to play. Not only is the mod not supported by DirecTV or RCA, it probably specifically voids the warranty on the DTC100 and may very well be subject to hardware changes/controls by DirecTV. Not my idea of a good way to spend 800 bucks. I don't know how much you make per year, but if you think recording off of HBO is worth 1900 bucks, you must make alot more than me.


What I'm waiting for (and I think we're all waiting for) is a D-Theater DVHS at about a $500 price point. And an STB to match with the requisite firewire outputs. Copy-once doesn't bother me, I only want to copy for my personal use. Copy-never would be stupid on HBO/Showtime, so while that doesn't mean they won't do it, I think it's pretty unlikely.


Anyway, I wasn't really looking for suggestions as to what to buy at the moment to record, I'm really looking for thoughts on where the industry is going and why we aren't seeing these products already.


Thanks! :)
 

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Am I worried?


Well, I'm certainly not worried about any of you who spend most of your time worrying and not doing anything to solve your own problems. As of today, solutions do exist. It is all a matter of the personal limitations you place on yourself. Whether it be money limits, or features, or who provides the channels for recording, you will find the excuse to not buy into the technology at this time. Likewise, people like me, Dave, Todd, also have fiscal limits but we find ways to enjoy the technology we want. So what do you want us to do, feel sorry for you because you are indecisive, frustrated because what you want is not available for a price you want to spend? Notice I said want to spend. If you really want something you will set a priority to have it. I believe that most of us here have a limited budget to spend on this stuff just like you. The difference is we make a decision and plan to have what we want while other sit around crying about how they can't. Success is packed in Cans, not Can'ts.

I'm not saying 169Time mod is for everyone. IT wasn't for me either until certain events happened and fell into place and then it bacame the obvious next step for my HT budget. I decided that. You have to decide and if it doesn't, then you are not ready for the current technology.


Just know that if you want to see a particular movie, on HBO HD, you have two choices to get the channel, Soon you will have 2 chioces to record the channel. Now you only have one. How many options do you need?

The technology is here to record the programs and soon there will be 2nd options to do this. If you don't do it it is only because you have decided not to so don't come crying to us. Instead, start planning. List your options today and soon into the future and make a decision.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Don, thats a fairly condescending post. Considering that the "option" right now is a hardware hack which may or may not be invalidated at any time (and currently isn't even for sale) which costs more than double what I paid for the STB itself, to me thats not an option.


Are you telling me that $1900 to record HBO is worth it? Actually.. any amount of money I could spend right now won't let me record HBO tomorrow unless I switch to Dish and get a 5000/modulator. And no amount of money will let me record HDNet. So don't tell me "you're just not ready for the technology" and I'm not "crying to you". I'm asking if anyone is worried that the legitimate manufacturers have not released a product which is clearly within their ability to manufacture, and that all of us clearly want. If 169time can sell a mod for $800 just to record OTA, I wonder how many STB's at $500 will fly off the shelves that have firewire? And these are things with warranties, manufacturer support, DirecTV support.


I'm not "crying" that I can't record today, I'm asking if anyone is worried that the manufacturers haven't made recording available to us yet.
 

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btmoore,


While for the most part I agree with you about tapes, one thing I think you are missing is that firewire makes dealing with tapes A LOT easier.


Gone are the days of IR flashers and manual syncronization of ecordings. We are on the cusp of being able to select a program from a guide (web page) and have it automatically be recorded to tape. With Firewire all of the devices in the chain talk to each other.


I would envision that within in the next year we will be able to pull up and program guide (either D*, E* or Cable) and select record and that's all you would have to do. In that world, I think tape is very viable.


Thoughts?


--Rick
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
ricka - what would be cool at that point is a multi-tape system, with digital cueing, so that when you pop in a tape it pulls up a menu of the things on that tape, and you can choose which one to watch. Then it fast-winds to that spot on the tape and plays your program. Multi-tape comes in if you select a bunch of programs to record, and they won't all fit on the one tape, then it can "store" say 10 tapes in a bay and just swap them out for each show as it runs out. And have it programmed so it won't break shows up over tapes, if there isn't enough room to get the whole show it'll go ahead and get a new tape.


I know I'm dreaming, but that would rock. :)
 

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Dylan, you are saying "no amount of money will let me record HDnet".

I must be a very very rich man since I am recording HDnet now at any time and any show!!!


I agree with you Don. We need to throw David F in too since he has been more key to 169 than people know. Thanks David!!!


If I were to justify ANY of my expenses for watching the Boob tube, I could not. So we all have income and spend the way we want. I am just glad for the folks who enjoy HD as a hobby, we have a choice with 169time to easily record and watch our stuff. I have no desire to fight and hack with any computer solution. I do that at my job all day long.


Talked to Richard and a little more progress on sat but wont report until I can do it in my house again. If his fix holds, only took him 3 weeks to overcome this one. I now fully understand why others are not able to get this stuff to work. It is NOT easy.


Don, hopefully soon we will no longer need to worry about what happens with the dish5000 setups.


Dave
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
h2ofun - way to pull a single (and quite meaningless in terms of the overall message/question) sentence out of a post and then make an inane reply to it. If you are an insider at a company beta-testing a product which does allow recording of HDNet, good for you! Most of us are not in that position, so it's not like I could hit the webpage and buy that.


I'm with you on the computer solution though, I don't want to have to dedicate a PC (or the problems associated with them) to HT. I too work with computers (software designer/engineer) all day. I'd much prefer to be able to buy an STB with firewire out which is supported by the CE manufacturers and DirecTV.. what I don't understand is why they aren't selling these.


Anybody got any answers?
 

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Am I worried?


Yes and no. I'm not worried about the technical side of things. Firewire (or even DVI) will eventually be implemented and there will be some sort of solution for recording that won't require an aftermarket modification. What I am worried about is what we will be allowed to record as part of our "fair use" rights. I'd bet that weekly network shows and PBS shows will allow one copy. I don't know about OTA sports and movies. I'd guess that they would also be "copy once" but I can also see a "no copy" on that programming. I'd bet that satellite movie channels would be no copy, on everything - even shows like Sopranos, Six Feet Under, and Dennis Miller.
 

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Dylan-


Condescending, maybe it is by your understanding. Let me summarize:


I am not worried because I recognize there are options available and most of those crying don't accept the options. They limit their possibilities and then cry because the mfg's won't built a piece of hardware to their personal specifications.

What those of us do that are not worried is seize upon opportunities as they arise and as they mesh with our wishes.

eg. I did not buy the HDVR100 from 169 Time right now to be able to record OTA. Hell, I can do that already with my Panny system. I bought it because it was the best solution that allows me to be able to play back my library of tapes recorded over the years with my Mitsubishi DVHS recorder. Get it? I can now record one program while watching another on tape. Plus, I recognize that 169 Time is a company that is dedicated to expanding the capability of their concept beyond the basic HDVR100. That is just the base or framework if you will to things of a much bigger scope that I believe I will want down the road.


I am condescending to those who cry about DishNet not having HDNet and to those past who cried about DirecTV not having Showtime HD.


Ref HDNet recording- Yes it is technically possible and according to what I have been told, Richard could release it today but it is still not perfect. What are the problems? I don't know for sure but I can guess and if my suspicions are correct, those issues would probably not apply to me but as Richard wants to release this with all these issues fixed, we wait. No biggie for me right now because I can afford to wait for another month anyway. Is that attitude condescending? Guess so, but sorry if I don't worry along with you. I really don't! I'll just choose to grab the technology when it becomes available if it meshes with my needs. Hell, I waited since 1988 to have HDTV in my HT and now I have it and can record it and I'm thrilled!
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Don - I guess my "personal specification" includes cost & compatibility. If that seems too specific for you or for anyone else, I apologize for not wanting to spend more than my display + STB + DVD player cost for a recording solution. And it's not even a particularly elegant solution.


With regards to compatibility, what makes you think DirecTV won't do anything about the mod to the DTC100 which allows this? Has 169Time contacted DirecTV about the mods they are making to the receiver, and have they gotten some assurrance that countermeasures won't be taken to make this mod ineffective? As far as what could they do, I have no idea. I don't know how 169time has made their modification, so DirecTV might not be able to do anything. But since I've never heard anyone talk about this, it's a question. Not an accusation - 169time seems like a fine outfit, with a product that fills a need.


The whole recording forum seems to have a "neener neener I can record and you can't thats why you're mad" attitude when anyone expresses dismay over the current options for recording. This is childish and should stop.
 

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No reason to be worried.


In 20 years, even Star Wars will be on Hidef disc and you will probably be able to buy any movies you want. And the players and TV will be cheap and all of the shows on TV will be Hidef too - even People's Court. Digital will be everywhere, life will be good.


Want a solution in the mean time? Sadly we are in the 'pay through the nose' bleeding edge of the game. Some have it, it costs a lot, and many may loose it. This applies to current Dish (5000 + modulator) and DIRECT offerings (169time big$$ no current solution). You can buy a lot of DTheater tapes for the price of one of these options!


Nothing is mainstream, so any investment is risky. Personally, I am holding off. h2ofun will say that my pile of DVHS tapes doesn't grow while his does. Well, he made his choice and I made mine. And who says my pile is not growing ;)


I agree with Rick in that as solutions become available through mainstream providers, whether it is cable, SAT, or other, the competition will cause solutions to come for most providers...


Cheers!

DAve.
 
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