[barth2k]

For those who have both OTA HD and D* NFL ST, how did the two's PQ compare? Also, was the bitrate reduced for the other HD channels -- Hdnet, HBO, etc -- during the games?

 

[MnGuy]

All I can say is that the CBS HD game looked identically fantastic on both channel 70 on D* and WCCO-DT here in Minneapolis. I don't know if they stole bandwith from other HD stations because during the game I could not have cared less if they were showing static on any channel not carrying football!

 

[BJS188]

The CBS-HD game was on the 101 satellite so it would not stole bandwidth from other HD channels. They did shut off about 10 SD PPV channels on Sunday afternoon.

 

[alpha21]

good


screw everything, but football

 

[steverobertson]

Quote:

Originally posted by alpha21 good screw everything, but football

I agree

 

[Benji]

Quote:

Originally posted by steverobertson I agree

I agree.

 

[Darin]

Quote:

Originally posted by alpha21 good screw everything, but football

I'm not a football fan (at ALL), but I think turning off PPV channels during the games is an excellent compromise. So may people are watching football during those periods, I'm sure the reduced number of PPV offerings doesn't cut in to their revenue one bit, and at least they aren't over-compressing the other channels to make room for it.

 

[JohnA]

Watching the ESPN HD Sunday night game, the PQ was excellent. Out of sheer curiosity I tuned to HDnet Movies which shares a transponder with ESPN HD. What I saw was a movie that looked no better than SD quality. I have no doubt D* "stole" bandwidth from it's sole-mate on the 110 bird transponder 10.

 

[RichYak]

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnA Watching the ESPN HD Sunday night game, the PQ was excellent. Out of sheer curiosity I tuned to HDnet Movies which shares a transponder with ESPN HD. What I saw was a movie that looked no better than SD quality. I have no doubt D* "stole" bandwidth from it's sole-mate on the 110 bird transponder 10.

ESPN-HD is on 24/7. Why would you have no doubt they "stole" bandwidth on Sunday night?

 

[JohnA]

Quote:

ESPN-HD is on 24/7. Why would you have no doubt they "stole" bandwidth on Sunday night?

My point is that theoretically ESPN and HDnet Movies would each be allocated 50% of the bandwidth which is not enough bandwidth for true HD. On Sunday night it appears ESPN was allocated some of HDnet's 50% so ESPN could achieve full bandwidth needed for true HD. As a consequence the resultant picture quality on HDnet Movies was not much better than SD quality. GET IT!

 

[alpha21]

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnA My point is that theoretically ESPN and HDnet Movies would each be allocated 50% of the bandwidth which is not enough bandwidth for true HD. On Sunday night it appears ESPN was allocated some of HDnet's 50% so ESPN could achieve full bandwidth needed for true HD. As a consequence the resultant picture quality on HDnet Movies was not much better than SD quality. GET IT!

pretty easy to understand




Quote:

Originally posted by RichYak ESPN-HD is on 24/7. Why would you have no doubt they "stole" bandwidth on Sunday night?

but ESPNHD is NOT in HD 24/7, so HDNet probably steals bandwidth from ESPNHD when there is no HD programming running

 

[bhambrad]

The PQ on Directv was very bad ( compression artifacts and lots of them) compared to the local CBS WIAT feed here in Birmingham, AL - the pq was stunning. It was a world of difference om my 65" Sony Projection.


ESPN HD looked great as well - but didn't compare to the CBS over the air - but Playmakers looks awesome!


Brad

 

[RichYak]

Quote:

Originally posted by alpha21 but ESPNHD is NOT is HD 24/7, so HDNet probably steals bandwidth from ESPNHD when there is no HD programming running

There's the rub. You and JohnA are implying that SD upconverted to 720p by ESPNHD chews up less bandwidth than 720p HD. I'm not convinced yo guys are right. Perhaps someone can jump in here to clarify.

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnA GET IT!

Yeah, I got it all along. I'm just questioning the logic and I could do without the tone. In 2 posts you went from "I have no doubt D* stole..." to "My point theoritically..." to "On Sunday Night it appears...". Awful lot of doubt suddenly. Are you sure you GET IT?! Geez, relax.

 

[bfdtv]

Quote:

There's the rub. You and JohnA are implying that SD upconverted to 720p by ESPNHD chews up less bandwidth than 720p HD. I'm not convinced yo guys are right. Perhaps someone can jump in here to clarify.

DirecTV uses stat mux for their HDTV channels. That means bandwidth is allocated on the fly based on the content being shown. DirecTV didn't have sufficient bandwidth on a transponder to meet the needs of two full bit rate HD channels, so this was their solution to fit two channels per transponder. When one channel needs more bandwidth for complex scenes or fast movement, it takes away bandwidth used by the other channel. In otherwords, when one channel needs more bandwidth, compression (taking the form of filtering for lower effective resolution and detail, or increased artifacts) is increased on the other.


Most of the time this all works out pretty well; of course, quality issues arise when both channels have intense content at the same time. During intense live high-definition sports on ESPN-HD, for example, Hdnet may at times look more like Sdnet. For some content, the extra compression may not be that obvious, while in other instances, it may be very obvious. Of course, DirecTV probably sets some caps on each channel to assure some minimum quality standard for each channel.


Getting back to your question...


Upconverted SDTV doesn't require anywhere near as much bandwidth as true HDTV video, as there isn't nearly as much information in the picture signal. So during much of the week, Hdnet gets more than its fair share of bandwidth (although perhaps still less than it is getting on Dish and some cable systems); during actual HD sports on ESPN, the bandwidth allocated to ESPN goes way up and that allocated to Hdnet goes down.

 

[bfdtv]

Quote:

The PQ on Directv was very bad ( compression artifacts and lots of them) compared to the local CBS WIAT feed here in Birmingham, AL - the pq was stunning. It was a world of difference om my 65" Sony Projection.

On another forum, someone mentioned that the CBS games were delivered on DirecTV at around 15.5-16.0Mbps (169time?). Encoders vary in performance, but the CBS broadcast on DirecTV probably looked comparable to the OTA feed of those CBS affiliates running a SD subchannel and a reduced bandwidth HDTV feed, and a bit worse than those local CBS affiliates with a dedicated 19.4Mbps HDTV broadcast.


Customers that have a local CBS affiliate with a 19.4Mbps broadcast will probably want to watch the games OTA for the best quality, when they are available.

 

[JohnA]

bfdtv - Thank you, You articulated and substantiated my novice assumption in a technically proficient manner.


RichYak - Sorry for the attitude, but I really didn't think you understood the point I was trying to make. That's what makes this forum great, there is always a more knowledgeable member here to jump in and set the record straight!

 

[JohnA]

bfdtv - Just curious, are you just an enthusiast or do you work/play in the industry?

john

 

[bfdtv]

John,


I participate here only because I have a personal interest in HDTV.

 

[RichYak]

Quote:

Originally posted by JohnA Sorry for the attitude, but I really didn't think you understood the point I was trying to make. That's what makes this forum great, there is always a more knowledgeable member here to jump in and set the record straight!

No prob. I did understand, just didn't necessarily agree based on only anecdotal evidence. Now, when bfdtv starts off with a sentence using the words "stat mux", I'm just going to have to defer . No harm no foul.