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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I bought a refurbished S2 about 2 weeks ago. This unit had one dead pixel. Since this unit also emitted a very high pitch whine (color wheel) I was able - with Dan M.’s help (Thanks again, Dan!) - to get a replacement unit sent from Marantz. The high pitch whine is gone now. However, this unit now has 2 dead pixels. I am very surprised to find dead pixels on such a supposedly high quality and for sure high price product in the first place. On the other hand with HD2 chips we are talking close to a million pixels and they all have to work… Well, my previous model, an LS110 had only less than half of the number of pixels (848x480), but I never had problems with dead pixels here.

I do not think that my problems are related to the fact that it is a refurbished and not a new unit. My understanding of refurbished units is that e.g. they were used as demo units on a trade show (hence might have a couple of hours already on the lamp (the first one had about 100h, the second a bit less than 400h) and some cosmetical flaws - which both have units also exhibit BTW and which I accept). Technically and functionally though, they should perform on the very same high level and meet the same high quality standards as brand new units.


I did a search here for dead or stuck pixel, but did not find a lot. So I wonder if this is so common that nobody talks about it or have I been just unlucky twice in a row…


I am looking forward to your comments.


_____

Axel
 

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The dead or stuck pixel issue is a bit confusing to me and what is expected/acceptable. When I first started looking at projectors I was impressed with the Sharp 10,000. I was given a brochure and at the very bottom of all the advertising hoopla and unit specifications, was a kind of ominous disclaimer worded to the effect that a "certain" number of errant pixels were within tolerances the manufacturer or purchaser could expect or some such thing. How this is implemented in the real world seems to me could be problematic depending on how many a "certain" number really is, where they are located, stuck on or off, etc. It's all in the eye of the beholder I would think. In all the demos that I have seen, I have not been aware of any bad pixels. I have not viewed test patterns at any of these demos, however. If it is common to have a "certain" number of bad pixels, maybe in real life viewing situations (not test screens) it's not all that noticeable. I would think that if a customer was really not happy that the manufacturer would replace the unit. But how many times? I'm hoping when my SX-21 arrives I have no such issues.
 

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Failed mirrors seem very rare with DLP - I can recall posts here mentioning it, that can only be counted on the fingers of one hand, but for LCD, it is more common.


LCD manufacturers do have disclaimers as Mark has said, though I've not heard of that for DLP.


Anyone know if a failed/stuck mirror is ever considered acceptable by any DLP pj manufacturers?


Gary.
 

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Here's the deal,


HD2 chips can have dead pixels and TI has confidential agreement between each manufacturer on how many dead pixels are allowable.


There was a post a while back from the Japanese service department at Marantz that said that up to five stuck-off pixels (way too many IMO) were acceptable while zero stuck-on were acceptable. Do a search on the S1 which had the HD-1 and you might turn it up.


Is that policy still in place? I can't say, but it should be irrelevant since the only dead-pixel policy that is in effect is the one between the end-user and the projector manufacturer and that policy shouldn't be as vague as it is currently.


The majority of HD2 projectors are dead pixel free. Either TI should change their policy (if the one above is still in place) or the manufactuers should just soak up the few bad apples. What shouldn't happen is end user's being stuck with a obviously inferior projector to the one his neighbor has.


Pissing and moaning about it usually gets the customer a good unit, but it shouldn't have to come to that. Buying a DLP projector 90% doesn't have any dead pixels. It is those unlucky 10% or less who have to deal with less than perfect units.


-Mr. Wigggles
 

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Good info and good points Mr Wiggles, thanks for your input.


Manufacturers should make it known what their pixel/mirror policy is, so then you have a choice to take a chance on getting their product, or one that will guarentee no faulty pixels.


Gary.
 

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Axel, are you also trying different sources? The reason I say this is my zenith sat520 sometimes shows one dead pixel. If I reset the box then it is fine. Do you see the dead pixels with no source input?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by MrWigggles
......


Pissing and moaning about it usually gets the customer a good unit, but it shouldn't have to come to that. .....
I am confident that Marantz will want to maintain their reputation of being a premium manufacturer with premium service (and premium prices), so I think this will not be necessary in my case…


I hope I am not too naïve…

______

Axel
 

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After I bought my S2 (new) I found a dead pixel. Marantz with the help of Dan Miller replaced the unit. The new unit has no dead pixels and better panel convergence than the original. Ask your dealer to see if Marantz can replace the unit with another hopefully perfect panel unit. If you get nowhere with your dealer try PMing Dan Miller and ask him if he can help. Marantz has a great reputation for service here on AVS.


Good luck,

- Dan
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Paul_Seng
Axel, are you also trying different sources? The reason I say this is my zenith sat520 sometimes shows one dead pixel. If I reset the box then it is fine. Do you see the dead pixels with no source input?


I just tried it: unfortunately, those dead pixels are source independent.


Thanks, though, Paul!

_____

Axel
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan2112
After I bought my S2 (new) I found a dead pixel. Marantz with the help of Dan Miller replaced the unit. The new unit has no dead pixels and better panel convergence than the original. Ask your dealer to see if Marantz can replace the unit with another hopefully perfect panel unit. If you get nowhere with your dealer try PMing Dan Miller and ask him if he can help. Marantz has a great reputation for service here on AVS.


Good luck,

- Dan
Dan;

I am glad to hear that things worked out for you so well. You mentioned your unit was new, mine is refurbished. Hmmm, I hope Marantz does not apply different quality standards...


I agree, Marantz has a great reputation for service, so I am confident that it won't take long until this problem has been fixed to my full satisfaction. Hey, those things happen and if fixed quickly and w/o pain it might be inconvenient but it’s not a big deal for me.


With DM's support I got already my first unit replaced. I already pmed him for more help. (Isn’t this a great benefit of having direct access to the manufacturer of your favorite toy, in particular when dealing with such knowledgeable and customer oriented guys like DM?)


Thanks!

____

Axel
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Axel
I do not think that my problems are related to the fact that it is a refurbished and not a new unit.
While there are demo units, etc. that become refurbs, what happens to those units that people are successful in exchanging for pixel free units, even though their original unit was technically within spec? My guess is that they become refurbs. That is one reason that I would be nervous about buying a refurb front projector without some kind of reasonable guarantee about the pixels.


I have one dead pixel on my Sharp 10k. I found it when checking out the unit just after I bought it. Fortunately it isn't in the center of the image, but I had a couple people from here come over to watch some stuff and they couldn't find it after an hour. I had told them I had a dead pixel, but I wouldn't tell them where it was. After that hour with no luck on their part I finally put up a little 100 IRE window, drug it over to where the dead pixel is and then they could see it. And the screen in my living room is a 116" wide High Power with about 1.4x viewing ratio, so it should be more obvious than in a lot of setups. On my 96" wide Firehawk it is much harder to see. I bought a D-ILA with a couple of dead pixels together and that one looked bad to me, but a dead pixel on a 3 chip turns colors. On a one chip it is just black.


Now, about the only time I realize I have a dead pixel is when I'm on this forum or think of it for some other reason. I don't tend to see it while viewing things unless I concentrate on trying to see it. I have found since then that with the short viewing ratio in my living room I like to defocus just a little bit to smooth the images out, anyway. That seems to make the pixel harder to see, also.


It is possible that I could send the projector back to Japan, but it hasn't seemed worth it to me. If it were in the center of the image it would probably be a different story, though.


When/if we get 1080p one chippers I don't think they will be as quick to exchange for dead pixels. Dead single pixels should be pretty hard to see.


--Darin
 

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Well the thread begs the question...


Does a S2 with one or a couple of dead pixels have value?


Would you buy one and at what price?


All other important specs being perfect, I would not mind owning a S2 with a very minor dead pixel "off" problem.


I would assume, a dead pixel projector could have a replacement DLP chip installed and calibrated for an acceptable cost.


Too bad those problem DLP chips aren't simple plug in replacements for some 4:3 projectors. ;-)


RJ

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I had a DLP delivered this month brand new factory fresh with a stuck mirrror - predictably it was dead centre...


Digital owners have to accept that the potential for dead pixels is the price you pay for digital just as convergance drift is for CRT owners.


This is a key area of concern *over time*. How reliable will the mirrors/pixels be? DLP/Dila is still maturing in the field and *consumers* don't have reliable data yet to suggest what the expected failure rate will be.


In the early 1990s Sharp had an '8 dead pixel' policy this was stated in LCD Sharpvision owner's manuals of the time.



Max Christoffersen
www.audioenz.co.nz
 

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My two (one stuck-on and one stuck off) mirrors of my XGA HD1 NEC LT150 DLP has remained stable over 2 years. Luckily it's on the edge of the screen so the black masking of the screen made it invisible. The stuck on is visible in a dark scene if the masking border was not there while the stuck off is very hard to see. Knock on wood, but my DLP has not developed any new dead pixels. I did not pursue replacement or repair as it's not visible with my setup. DLP can have dead mirrors like LCD can have dead pixels. The difference is LCD has 3 panels so has triple the risks of dust blobs and dead pixels.


Dan2112, how do you get better panel convergence on a DLP. By definition since DLP is only 1 single panel convergence is not applicable.
 

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For all those who have seen dead pixels on DLP, did you find that you could see these dead pixels at the seating position where you'd normally watch a movie, or did you really have to get right upto the screen where you can phycially make our the pixel struction in order to see the stuck mirrors?


I suppose if it was up to me if i could not see it from the normal viewing distance then for me that would be ok.
 

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You can see it clearly depending on the image on-screen.


I always think of pixel failure as being like the rattle in the glove box...you just *know* it's there and you keep looking for it.


To put it into some perspective, when I first saw the bright blue tell tale sign of LCD pixel failure, the pixels were so big that a long distance field camera shot had the fielder completely enclosed inside it..!


Today the pixels/mirrors are smaller.


Unfortunately, the irritation factor of pixel failure has not reduced in equal increments.


Max Christoffersen
www.audioenz.co.nz




Max Christoffersen
www.audioenz.co.nz
 

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I have a Sharpvision XVS96U LCD projector and it has a pixel that starts off fine and then starts glowing bright green after about an hour of use and stays that way until the projector has been off for several hours. It's about 9 o'clock and 8" from the edge of the screen, and try as I might I can't ignore it. It did not exhibit this behavior until after I'd had it for about a year. I just don't think I could live with a $10k projector that had a known stuck pixel - on or off. It would drive me crazy. Unfortunately, this is one of the dirty secrets of digital FP's.


I understand the cost implications of demanding zero-defect imaging devices, especially as we keep driving the resolution up. However, I also agree that the "luck of the draw" argument would not cut it with me, and as others have pointed out it is not a good model. Rather, I think manufacturers should institute a grading scale and discount units appropriately that have pixel defects. TI should not be able to charge the same amount for a chip that has defects as one that doesn't, and we shouldn't have to pay the same for a projector manufactured using that chip. As long as I knew what I was getting, I may be willing to accept a bad pixel or two for a 20% discount. For the most part, the manufacturer knows (or should know) when a unit has pixel defects if it bothers to do any meaningful quality control before shipping. They could "grade" the units at that time and price them accordingly - perhaps this is already happening as Darin suggested by offering them as refurbs. If so, why not just tell the customer what he's getting so there is no secret about it?


Allen
 

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Pixels that are good out of the box will not fail over time. That is truly exceptional and unlikely.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by [email protected]
This is a key area of concern *over time*. How reliable will the mirrors/pixels be? DLP/Dila is still maturing in the field and *consumers* don't have reliable data yet to suggest what the expected failure rate will be.
I think Rogo is pretty much right. Seems like there is a lot of evidence that the failure rate for DLP after day one is extremely small. That is, if there aren't any stuck or dead pixels when you get it, you shouldn't spend any brainwaves worrying about getting them later :)


I don't know about LCD, but it may be different.


--Darion
 

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I have heard this too - that they are either DOA or you're 'safe'. I am unsure if this is fact or anecdotal wishful-fiction.


I think the issue here is one of communication.


Consumers are paying their money and taking their chances'. But consumers don't know the expected life span of their machines and TI isn't talking.


By way of comparison, I can't name too many older LCDs that don't have a blown pixel somewhere (it not multiples in the half dozens).


I'm still siding on the view that says, be reasonable and realistic about new generation technologies and *know* what you're buying and check the manufacturer's obligations.



Max Christoffersen
www.audioenz.co.nz
 
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