[R Harkness]

Hi folks,


I'm still putting my pennies away for (I hope) a 42" plasma screen - probably Panasonic.


Since prices have been dropping, I phoned an AV dealer who sells items to our company at just above dealer cost - he has the Panasonic 42" in his store. I was curious if he'd dropped his price down, following the price drops for the Panny and other plasmas over the last year. His price had dropped a little for the Panny. But then he went on to offer some "friendly advice" regarding buying a plasma.


He said the reason plasma prices are dropping is that it's becoming common knowledge just how defective and short-lived many PDPs are. PDPs were manufactured for industrial use. The public saw them, began clamoring for PDPs, which weren't really a consumer-ready device, but the plasma manufacturers said "hookay, if you want 'em, we'll start selling them to you."


The dealer said, what nobody is telling consumers is that Plasmas are known to have what amounts to a five year life-span ("average use"). He said that a Fujitsu PDP was installed in a local hotel and run 24 hours a day. After 8 months the panel is already dead and must be replaced.


I know people on this forum are quite aware of the

controversies surrounding PDPs, but I thought I'd throw this guy's warning into the ring, just to see what people here have to say about it.


I take it those who have bought plasmas have no regrets (?).


(I admit that even this scare-mongering barely dilutes the pull of a PDP for me...).


Thanks,


Rich

 

[markrubin]

reminds me of the arguments of LP records Vs CD's

 

[eelton]

Quote:

He said the reason plasma prices are dropping is that it's becoming common knowledge just how defective and short-lived many PDPs are

This strikes me as completely ridiculous. Prices are falling due to decreasing manufacturing costs and increasing competition, just as for any other consumer electronic product. If what he is saying were true, demand would be falling. Clearly, though, demand is increasing (in response to falling prices and improvements in quality). Just look at the number of people on this board buying plasmas, compared to a year ago when plasma owners were a rarity.


As for longevity, plasmas do have burn-in issues, and a plasma used in a commercial setting, displaying largely static images 24 hours a day, will have that problem. That doesn't necessarily translate to use by consumers, though. It seems to me that consumer applications actually work better, with non-static images and part-time use. There's pretty extensive experience on this board, and I don't see a lot of "my plasma died after xx months" posts.


Although there may be some good apples out there, I've never trusted salesmen (and dealers are salesmen) regarding anything. They're basically out to sell whatever gives them the greatest profit, not what is best for the customer.

 

[reboot]

Ya


Sounds like your dealer is about to try and sell his latest overstocked RPTV. RPTV’s things look absolutely awful. They remind me of looking at a tube through a magnifying glass.


Plasmas have expected life of 30,000 hrs before brightness is depleted to 50%. If the FUJ I have is –50%, it would still be BRIGHT.


Sounds like another ignorant uneducated salesman


reboot

 

[billharris4]

Rich,

Prices never drop on anything because they're "defective" and "short-lived." They drop because of efficiencies gained in the production curve. The dealer clearly has an agenda and has no basic understanding of economics to boot.


As far as plasmas having a five-year life span, if my Panny lasts for five years with the incredible picture quality it gives, I'll be thrilled. The technology will be so much better in five years that we'll all be ready to replace our screens by then, if not sooner.


Given some of the recent research advancements, plasmas and LCD monitors are both looking like the future as far as I'm concerned. We've already seen what's happened as soon as LCD monitors dropped in price to semi-reasonable levels--the CRT market has basically collapsed. I have no reason to think that the same won't happen with plasma sets. The "wow" factor is just off the charts.

 

[Compromise]

I do not know if this fits here, but I have had an Infocus for 3 years. Its an old 800x600. But I am still using the same bulb and it only has 300 hours on it (keeps an internal timer which you can display).


The colors are now fading bad. Orange is going to weak yellow, etc. I only use it for internal purposes inside the company.


Now, the people with projectors should be more concerned than PDP owners. Of course this was an LCLV version and not a DLP version, which in its own might has life time problems as well (little mirrors breaking after 10^7 flops.) I will not get into my other comments on prjectors see: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...572#post647572


And if you have a RPTV then you have to look at a red line on the side of the guy's face forever, eventhough it has "computer controlled" convergence to within "a" pixel. (can still see the red line)


Best TV I've ever had is my old ProScan 36" but finally after 8 years it is wiggly at the top and "snaps" once in a while to the correct position which is why I am in the market for something new like a plasma.


Lifetime is an issue with everything. Plasma technology fortunately offers the greatest lifetime unless you are plasmacrack (sorry plasmacrack, I feel sorry for you).


Best,

Peter

 

[rols]

your comment about 'always seeing a little red line on the side

of someone's face' rings true. I've been looking at TVs all weekend and haven't seen one single RPTV which I thought had a wonderful picture. Many of them may have been poorly set up but that concerns me anyway, something which needs so much setup drifts out with time, and every time you move it you need to do it again. I was very disappointed.


Roland

 

[mallu]

I heard that plasma has a lifetime of 30000 hours. Is that true?


If that is the case I can use the plasma TV for next 15 years

on an average of 5 hours per day.

 

[bussu]

Given the rapid rate of technological advancement with plasmas, I doubt you would want to keep current plasmas more than 5 years, let alone 15 years. I plan to replace my new one within 3 years.

 

[Chippy99]

Quote:

Originally posted by mallu I heard that plasma has a lifetime of 30000 hours. Is that true? If that is the case I can use the plasma TV for next 15 years on an average of 5 hours per day.

Panasonic quote a 30,000 life for their 42" plasmas. (Don't know about the 50").


But bear in mind that they aren't "perfect" one day, and then unusable the next. The brightness and contrast will gradually deteriorate, until a point where the thing needs to be junked.


However, on the Panny's, there's plenty of scope to keep turning the brightness and contrast up a bit, and if my 42" Panny gets even 15,000 hours life, I'd still be delighted.


Chip.

 

[rogo]

Given the rapid rate of technological change, I expect that I'll be able to buy a 55-60" flat-screen display of some kind within 5 years for well under $5K that is much, much better than anything for sale today.


In spite of that, the Panasonic 42" I have on order will likely be used for 10+ years in a bedroom or office or guest room. I may upgrade a "main" display, but I certainly won't toss out a great one like this.


Oh, and with the expected mean-time to half brightness, I'm not worried about burn-in or fade or any of those things. These are solid-state displays and ought to last like them.


Mark

 

[Compromise]

Well, technically, they are not solid state, they are plasma and as such can out-gas as such which is why the lifetime.

 

[Pete Putman]

The key to plasma life is how hard you run the display. Remember - plasma displays are basically made up of thousands of tiny fluorescent lamps, and use a technique similar to pulse-width modulation to produyce grayscales.


They activate with pretty high voltages (about 200 volts initial discharge) and require 50 volts or so to "sustain" before being switched off. This cycle is repeated for each step needed to produce a grayscale.


What happenss to fluorescent lamps? They age and become dimmer over time, until they will not ionize anymore and have to be replaced. The same thing will eventually happen to a plasma TV.


The big question (and empirical data is stil being collected on this) is how long they will last. 30,000 hours may be too high an estimate. 10,000 hours may be low. Panels have been burned in with less that a three-day trade show cycle by being run too hot.


Sometimes a burned-in image is actually a residual pixel charge, which can be erased by activating another duty cycle. This isn't s serious problem, and in fact can be observed on TV picture tubes.


The trick is to operate a plasma panel within reasonable parameters. If 22 - 25 ft/L is sufficient for watching TV, then run your plasma at that level.


Remember - set your plasma for best grayscale, not brightest image. You will find that you can easily get 25 ft/L out of the panel and still have good contrast.


Pete

 

[registered5x]

Plasma is basically an untested technology. I don't see anything more than a 1 year warranty. My LCD projector (EIKI) has a three year full warranty and most CRT's have similar. I'm willing to live with this unknown because it's the only thing that will fit (depth-wise) in my beautiful old French Armoire.


Who know how it will play out in 3-5 years. If I couldn't amortize it over three years, I'd furghedaboutit. One reason I opted for a 42 v. 50 ($4500 v. $6100). So, $1500 per year - not too bad, but giving up some good wine money which is tough trade.


Reboot sez
Quote:

If the FUJ I have is –50%, it would still be BRIGHT.

Remember, even if you lose 25%, it's trash because it doesn't degrade linearly.


Everytime I hear about the "WOW" factor, I cringe as that's a lot of money to be wow'ed for a few months until something better comes along. This is evolving technology.


Caveat Emptor.

 

[amillians]

I know I should stick to the CRT forum, but something just made me come here and take objection to this...


-------------------------

your comment about 'always seeing a little red line on the side

of someone's face' rings true. I've been looking at TVs all weekend and haven't seen one single RPTV which I thought had a wonderful picture. Many of them may have been poorly set up but that concerns me anyway, something which needs so much setup drifts out with time, and every time you move it you need to do it again. I was very disappointed.

-------------------------


Yes, a non-calibrated CRT looks terrible. A non-calibrated CRT with contrast set to 100 looks even worse--and, unfortunately, that's how 99% of them, be they direct view or RPTV, are shown on the dealer floor. Please don't judge the technology by what you see in the showroom--once properly set up and ISF'd, they can look great. I agree that they can be a minor-to-major pain to keep calibrated, but it something a lot of people live with the get the best picture out there.


Of course, I fully expect to get smacked in the face by a plasma screen any minute now. Methinks I should saunter back to the CRT forum...

 

[plasmacrack]

Quote:

Originally posted by Compromise Lifetime is an issue with everything. Plasma technology fortunately offers the greatest lifetime unless you are plasmacrack (sorry plasmacrack, I feel sorry for you).

Ha! Thanks, Peter. Although I have recently switched to a Panasonic, and love it! The Sony never got to live out its lifecycle, and will forever be remembered. Meanwhile, it sits in the Plasma Morgue, waiting for an autopsy by the evil FedEx police, who will determine that its net worth (despite having a great life insurance policy) will only be $500 or so at best.


No more FedEx for me.

 

[hdguy]

Registered5x,

I hate to disagree with you, but Plasma is not a new technology. Some manufacturers are already on their 5th generation with their current models. In my book, that makes it an established consumer product.


Would you say that DVD players are still in the evolving stage? No, I didn't think so , but DVDs are only in their 4th year of existence. Kinda puts it into perspective, doesn't it?


Claims by manufacturers that plasma panels will last 30K hours are based on empirical data observered in a laboratory, not a haphazzard estimate.


I guess you won't be convinced of that fact until you see plasma panels on sale at your local K-mart.

 

[Tony Gamble]

"Remember - set your plasma for best grayscale, not brightest image. "


Pete, or anyone else lurking.


Can you expand on this please?


I have a Panny 42PWD3 and the Avia disk. How should I achieve what you are suggesting?


Rgds


Tony

London UK

 

[alchymie]

Quote:

...I phoned an AV dealer who sells items to our company at just above dealer cost...

How much is just above dealer cost for the 42" Panasonic?

 

[oferlaor]

Tony,


I don't think you really can (not without expensive equipment and access to the service menu manual)...


However, you can set your contrast and brightness by looking at IRE steps, or grayscales and seeing that they're all as linear as possible.


It's quite difficult to do with just your eyes.


Also, keep in mind that AVIA limits you to NTSC sources - the calibration for PAL could be somewhat different.


On my Fujitsu, I didn't quite like the results that the AVIA produced when I copied them as-is to PAL. I ended up changing the results altogether in PAL.


Sadly, most of AVIA tests are targeted for projectors (e.g., contrast, brightness, sharpness tests) and I'm not sure how good they are for plasma.