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Throw out Phase 1.

Implement Phase 2 now.
Sell the 12's to get some money back. (You don't have to believe me, you'll hear it for yourself when you power it up!)

and if some-how that still isn't enough bass... add Phase 3 next.

and if that STILL isn't enough, then: Phase 1 isn't gonna help you...

The sooner you can stop using 12's, the better off you'll be.
Based on that chart I see that your 12's are producing 10% distortion @ 25hz @ 100-ish db, that will drop to 0% when you replace them with 18's.

Louder, deeper, less distortion and greater dynamics. Starting from the 0th watt... all the way to clipping.
 

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Here is a weird idea:
The mounting depth of the UM-18 is 9inches. You could put it sideways up front to get 4 UM-18's in the room.
Make the box 12inches deep, 20inches wide and "as tall as needed" to obtain an optimal-box volume.

Move the furniture so that it is flush with the 20inches if that bugs you.

The more 18's you can fit in the room, the better off you'll be. Don't be afraid of dual-opposed, it is a great way to stuff the maximum number of drivers in the smallest possible volume.
I'd put more 18's behind the seats too.

People do vastly-underestimate the amount of bass they need/desire.
You said it yourself, you are missing impact. That means you need more SPL, especially in the 50-300hz region (the impact region.)

Death metal is all drums.
Drums are mostly 50-300hz.
More
 

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Discussion Starter #23
one option is to point the subs toward the wall and use that wood texture/feature on the sides and the back of the cab (the parts that would be seen in the room).


alternatively, the baffle side could get a grill cloth. that wood does make a for a nice look.


This is for the 2 small drivers correct?

Is there any reason not to do downward firing?
 

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Discussion Starter #24
its a little difficult making a recommendation because it isn't completely clear what aspect you are seeking to improve (low end max output, mid-bass punch, etc.) if looking to just forklift the whole bass end of the theater...


looking at your room drawings, you have outlined a "phase 2" option that replaces the 12's with some larger boxes.

that's actually where you might want to start.


here is a comparo of 1 um18 in a big ported cab vs. an hst11 in a tiny sealed cab both with 1000 watts power.





there is nothing wrong with the hst-11, it is just not the most efficient driver and when combined with a tiny cab, it is going to take a ton of power to get high output. i don't think the inuke is the best choice if you go that route.


that should get you up into the 'big bass' ballpark for about $1k +/- for two drivers and an inuke6000dsp.


a couple small cabs with high efficiency drivers could then fill in the midbass.


there have been a couple of builds that were triangle-shaped if something like that might work better behind your couches.
Throw out Phase 1.

Implement Phase 2 now.
Sell the 12's to get some money back. (You don't have to believe me, you'll hear it for yourself when you power it up!)

and if some-how that still isn't enough bass... add Phase 3 next.

and if that STILL isn't enough, then: Phase 1 isn't gonna help you...

The sooner you can stop using 12's, the better off you'll be.
Based on that chart I see that your 12's are producing 10% distortion @ 25hz @ 100-ish db, that will drop to 0% when you replace them with 18's.

Louder, deeper, less distortion and greater dynamics. Starting from the 0th watt... all the way to clipping.
Thanks very much for helping me work this out!

I do have 2 goals: raising the overall bass level. Some vibration for when I watch movies or well mixed TV shows. Mid-bass punch at all times.

What I'm hearing is use front subs for the mid-bass punch and replace the rears for raising overall bass. So if I'm starting with 2 what 18 should I use? Is SI HT18, UM18, HST18? I'm less concerned about boomy in the back row in that case. With all the room in the back, I could get some flatpacks and be done with that. Perhaps that would be an easier first go at all this.

For the fronts some 10's would be ideal. If I could make something compact and clean that would be the goal. I could make it look nice and have it blend well with my paradigms.

With regards to phase 3 (the MBM's). That will require some spousal approval... So I'm not going to focus on that.

I really wanted to avoid selling those LVX12's just for the hassle. The shipping is insane on those. I'm already having a heck of a time attempting to sell my Paradigm 45C.
 

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Discussion Starter #25
Man, I really like the idea of flat packs! The more I think about ikea-ing the "build" the better. That'll prep me for the arts-y fronts.

So I guess it's driver and amp recommendations

How does the HST18, HT18, and UM18 compare to each other in sound quality?
 

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@Electrodynamic should be able to help you out

Anyway you mention the hst-11 but then link videos from the 12 and 18...

The driver isn't going to produce mechanical noise until pushed hard. Why are you limited to such a small box size? Is this going in a car or in a home?
^ +1. In the first video I don't hear any mechanical noise even when it's moving over 2" preproducing the 7 Hz blurbs in Bass I Love You. In the second video the HST-12 (first version) was being sent a decent amount of power in free air. Our first version HST subwoofers were noisier than the new mkII drivers as the mkII motors are not only completely re-designed and new but they are also quieter under operation with smoothed over air passageways. Here is a video of both an HST-18 mkII and an HST-12 mkII on the same test bench. And note that you hear everything free-air but you won't hear hardly anything (if anything at all) when the woofers are mounted in a box (sealed or ported).

 

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Discussion Starter #27 (Edited)
Welp, here's an interesting development.

I was running some REW sweeps (with my toddler sleeping) and my wife watching TV. I ran them at -20dB on the receiver. She said the windows were shaking upstairs?!?! They certainly weren't shaking down here. I'm gonna experiment more with different positions but perhaps this is seriously a neutered position.

MEANING: replacing the rears with 18's might not be wise due to the fact that I'm gonna have to run them really hot to get the effect I'm looking for. So perhaps different locations is the way to go. Which means MBM's and fronts.

This was at 90dB, using my miniDSP as a splitter but at complete factory reset. Just so you can see the sweep and see how flat this thing is on it's own.



What I was experimenting with was, if the miniDSP was flat, then perhaps I could replace it with a Y Splitter.



But look at the discrepancy?!?!?! Factory reset miniDSP vs an all-female Y-Splitter

 

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Discussion Starter #30
One is a black belt, the other is a white belt. The 24 is Bruce Lee. :D
:D

I'm gonna run a bunch of tests and see what my options are. I can't have them blasting upstairs just to get the desired effect downstairs.

I'm hoping to get some clarity after my next experiments. Likely tomorrow or Wednesday.
 

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That null is without moving the sub or mic?

The minidsp adds a bit of hardware delay that the y cable doesn't have. It's probably phase shift due to the delay (or you moved something).
 

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Discussion Starter #32
That null is without moving the sub or mic?

The minidsp adds a bit of hardware delay that the y cable doesn't have. It's probably phase shift due to the delay (or you moved something).
Literally that is what I was thinking that the MiniDSP caused the delay which put them in phase. I didn't move anything (mic nor subs).

TONIGHT

I worked it out with my wife that I am running test sweeps tonight:

test sub locations turn off audyssey, unplug and move mains, get long cable and extension cord, move to 12 o'clock volume
test left front run repeats with upstairs "shaking", -15dB, at 12 o'clock
test left rear run repeats with upstairs "shaking", -15dB, at 12 o'clock
test right front run repeats with upstairs "shaking", -15dB, at 12 o'clock
test right rear run repeats with upstairs "shaking", -15dB, at 12 o'clock

test LVX's to see if same/similar response in one spot send both subs the same
try one sub measure signal, then the other

Move PDR80 downstairs move to 12 o'clock volume, use signal responses to consider for midbass
test left front
test left rear
test right front
test right rear

(I have a spare PDR 80, I may see how that acts as mid-bass). I might even Y-split the main channel and LFE set a crossover at 40Hz and 160Hz on the miniDSP to see if I can get some "punch"

Time align subs with DSP in rear


Next Week

Test Seismic 110 for fronts
Then I'm going to borrow a Seismic 110 next week and see how that sounds. From there I'll have to info to see what my goals are and what's feasible. New Fronts subs, MBM's, new rear large factor subs.

Test Outlaw amp on mains
run all channels at -12dB with AVS Reference BD's and try to stress fronts, record with measurement mic, inverse phase of with amp and without amp and see if there's a desirnable difference. Also, take notes for anecdotal difference.
 

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Discussion Starter #34
I did everything but time align and I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing with the results. I turned audyssey off and ran sweeps in all 4 locations. I also brought down a smaller sub to see the impact upfront. It's a pretty small bare-bones sub but I took the opportunity while I had it.
 

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Discussion Starter #35
I figured out what driver I'm going to use. The magnum 12 by DIYSG. I recently heard @Trimlock's review and it sounded like something I was after. If they don't work well for fronts I can build boxes to create nearfield MBM's. It's a lower cost and a lower risk. Unfortunately I'm going to be limited to a 1cuft build. It appears there is both a sealed and unsealed offering for that.

Small Ported: 28.5 liters (1 cuft) tuned to 45hz will have an F3 of 58hz and an F6 of 47hz. This will allow for very small 3-way speakers able to keep up with even the largest subwoofer systems.

Sealed: 28.5 liters (1cuft) will give an F3 of 80hz and an F6 of 62hz. This will allow for very small dual woofer 3-way speakers that can handle massive amounts of power.
Now I just need to pick a box design (OD 12W x 15H x 15D). Either a companion piece for my BDI or a Mid-Century Modern design...

Suggestions on an amp for these bad-boys. I have a miniDSP if that matters. I see @Trimlock tested at 200W and is looking to raise to 400W. They are capable of 1000W. I'm pretty darn excited and like the fact that I can go less expensive.
 

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I figured out what driver I'm going to use. The magnum 12 by DIYSG. I recently heard @Trimlock's review and it sounded like something I was after. If they don't work well for fronts I can build boxes to create nearfield MBM's. It's a lower cost and a lower risk. Unfortunately I'm going to be limited to a 1cuft build. It appears there is both a sealed and unsealed offering for that.



Now I just need to pick a box design (OD 12W x 15H x 15D). Either a companion piece for my BDI or a Mid-Century Modern design...

Suggestions on an amp for these bad-boys. I have a miniDSP if that matters. I see @Trimlock tested at 200W and is looking to raise to 400W. They are capable of 1000W. I'm pretty darn excited and like the fact that I can go less expensive.
uh, 42hz fs... that's not really good for a sub.
 

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Discussion Starter #37 (Edited)
uh, 42hz fs... that's not really good for a sub.
We've got some good testimonials. If they don't dig deep enough I can simply swap them with the HST-11's and make these nearfield MBM's. I have to be realistic with my expectations on a 1.0cuft box. I still have 2 Rythmik LVX 12's that I can swap out. However, the area where I can fit a larger sub in my theater is not the best so it makes more sense create these and if they aren't great turn them into nearfield MBM's.

If I could afford it, I'd get these for my fronts:

https://www.paradigm.com/products-current/type=subwoofer/model=seismic-110/page=overview

I plugged them in finally. Only single channel off of the 3000dsp. I have to admit I had a "holy ****!" moment when I played AWOL Nation - Sail. The bass detail makes the um18 look like a piece of cow poop.

I haven't stretched them yet. I'll run a few more songs and movies before I try to 400watts each, right now they may have gotten 200 max.
I dont think youll get chuffing. Its not a very long port. Diameter and length can both be factors in chuffing.

I like the idea of using them as a 3 way with the concetrics. I think that combined with a quality sub system (or not) could make a pretty amazing setup for a very reasonable sized budget. Im surprised more people dont make these. The woofer is far superior to the Dayton PA woofers.


 

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