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Discussion Starter #1
Hey guys,

I know the HW40ES is a better projector, I'm not doubting this. But as the prices of both are in a completely different league over here, I have a very hard time deciding.

The Sony HW40ES is about 2200
The Panasonic AT6000(AE8000) is about 1500

Now is the HW40ES really worth the extra 700 or am I better off buying the AT6000(AE8000).

These are really the best prices around, deals inclusive.

Also, any chance the next projector event will announce 3000 max 4k projectors? Or are we waiting at least another few years for that.
 
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Hey guys,

I know the HW40ES is a better projector, I'm not doubting this. But as the prices of both are in a completely different league over here, I have a very hard time deciding.

The Sony HW40ES is about 2200
The Panasonic AT6000(AE8000) is about 1500

Now is the HW40ES really worth the extra 700 or am I better off buying the AT6000(AE8000).

These are really the best prices around, deals inclusive.

Also, any chance the next projector event will announce 3000 max 4k projectors? Or are we waiting at least another few years for that.
You should be looking at Epson 5025ub, same projector as Epson 5030 minus black on case , u can get for 1699 with extra bulb
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Not available in Europe
 

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How much does $2,200 hurt you? How much does that $700 impact your setup?

How big is your screen? What type of viewing do you do? Sports? Gaming? Movies?

How good is your room? Is it a dark room with dark walls and dark ceiling and carpet? Or is it another living room?

The HW40ES is brighter, has better contrast, handles motion better, is quieter, has better optics, has smaller inter-pixel gap. It's better. IMO, the AE8000 isn't one I would even consider. I would get the HD50 from Optoma instead at that price point. But really, I would get the Sony.
 

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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
How much does $2,200 hurt you? How much does that $700 impact your setup?

How big is your screen? What type of viewing do you do? Sports? Gaming? Movies?

How good is your room? Is it a dark room with dark walls and dark ceiling and carpet? Or is it another living room?

The HW40ES is brighter, has better contrast, handles motion better, is quieter, has better optics, has smaller inter-pixel gap. It's better. IMO, the AE8000 isn't one I would even consider. I would get the HD50 from Optoma instead at that price point. But really, I would get the Sony.
  • 1. This would be my first projector so I don't have a screen yet, the screen size I'm aiming for is 120", though anything between 100 and 120 I can live with.
  • 2. It's going to do be doing mainly gaming, so I expect the interpolation functions to be good. I don't like motion blur, but I'm expecting to run all of my material at 60FPS. Daytime viewing for TV material is a big plus, but not absolutely necessairy. We will probably put another smaller TV somewhere else.
  • 3. It's just a living room, however it's not overly bright, the sun never really reaches it. The walls are white however, and I don't like sitting in the dark. The PJ must handle some ambient light.
  • 4. I expect it to be very quiet, I don't like noisy things at all. Which is one of the reasons I have a hard time taking the w1070 seriously.
  • 5. Image quality is important to me, a high contrast ratio is important.

As for budget, well I can spend pretty much whatever I want. But I want that money to be used intelligently. I don't want to buy something for 2000$ that will just take me a couple of years.

With the upcoming 4k, I know I'll just replace the projector the moment I've got a PC that can run all games at 4k. It just doesn't make all that much sense to me to invest too much in aging technology.

I've also got a deadline, my daughter is born in august, I'm not going to be able to focus on this stuff for awhile after that. So I'll have to buy it now as my TV's panel is in the last stages of it's life.

EDIT: Added pictures, the TV you see there is 55"
 

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  • 2. It's going to do be doing mainly gaming, so I expect the interpolation functions to be good. I don't like motion blur, but I'm expecting to run all of my material at 60FPS. Daytime viewing for TV material is a big plus, but not absolutely necessairy. We will probably put another smaller TV somewhere else.
  • 3. It's just a living room, however it's not overly bright, the sun never really reaches it. The walls are white however, and I don't like sitting in the dark. The PJ must handle some ambient light.
  • 4. I expect it to be very quiet, I don't like noisy things at all. Which is one of the reasons I have a hard time taking the w1070 seriously.
  • 5. Image quality is important to me, a high contrast ratio is important.
Just with the things you mention here, get the Sony. It excels at all of them, especially gaming. You will not find a better projector for gaming, i.e low gaming lag, no motion blur, no pixels/screen door effect. It also does well with moderate ambient light. And the Sony is almost completely silent, you will not hear it. These are the exact reasons why I got the Sony as well.

In my opinion, I don't believe 4K projectors will be common and inexpensive for at least another 2-3 years. By then, there will be enough content available as well, and we'll have gotten plenty of use out of our PJ's we have today. Good luck!
 

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The W1070 or the HW40ES make sense. The AE8000 doesn't make sense. If the W1070 was quieter, then it would be the ideal choice. Your room isn't very good for front projection. Don't get me wrong, it's fine for a 'TV', but a projection setup is significantly impacted by reflections, and your local movie theater doesn't have white walls... There's a reason for that. So, the HW40ES in a light colored room loses some of what makes it great because of the color of the room. Still, it's very quiet, and that doesn't change just because the room isn't great for projection.

Control your lighting. The more you control it, the more the HW40ES will look better.

http://www.avintegrated.com/lighting.html

The Panasonic is good. The HW40ES is a fair bit better overall. Especially for gaming and capability for motion handling.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
The W1070 or the HW40ES make sense. The AE8000 doesn't make sense. If the W1070 was quieter, then it would be the ideal choice. Your room isn't very good for front projection. Don't get me wrong, it's fine for a 'TV', but a projection setup is significantly impacted by reflections, and your local movie theater doesn't have white walls... There's a reason for that. So, the HW40ES in a light colored room loses some of what makes it great because of the color of the room. Still, it's very quiet, and that doesn't change just because the room isn't great for projection.

Control your lighting. The more you control it, the more the HW40ES will look better.

http://www.avintegrated.com/lighting.html

The Panasonic is good. The HW40ES is a fair bit better overall. Especially for gaming and capability for motion handling.
You're referring to the white wall?

Well I want my living room to be a little fun to be around in, giving it a dark paint is just going to be depressing for everything except projection. I was thinking a good quality screen would help with this.
 

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  • 1. This would be my first projector so I don't have a screen yet, the screen size I'm aiming for is 120", though anything between 100 and 120 I can live with.
  • 2. It's going to do be doing mainly gaming, so I expect the interpolation functions to be good. I don't like motion blur, but I'm expecting to run all of my material at 60FPS. Daytime viewing for TV material is a big plus, but not absolutely necessairy. We will probably put another smaller TV somewhere else.
  • 3. It's just a living room, however it's not overly bright, the sun never really reaches it. The walls are white however, and I don't like sitting in the dark. The PJ must handle some ambient light.
  • 4. I expect it to be very quiet, I don't like noisy things at all. Which is one of the reasons I have a hard time taking the w1070 seriously.
  • 5. Image quality is important to me, a high contrast ratio is important.

As for budget, well I can spend pretty much whatever I want. But I want that money to be used intelligently. I don't want to buy something for 2000$ that will just take me a couple of years.

With the upcoming 4k, I know I'll just replace the projector the moment I've got a PC that can run all games at 4k. It just doesn't make all that much sense to me to invest too much in aging technology.

I've also got a deadline, my daughter is born in august, I'm not going to be able to focus on this stuff for awhile after that. So I'll have to buy it now as my TV's panel is in the last stages of it's life.

EDIT: Added pictures, the TV you see there is 55"
In your room, the Panasonic is a non-starter. It just doesn't have the brightness to fight ambient light or light-colored walls.

Also, in your room, you would be hard-pressed to notice a contrast ratio difference between the W1070 and the Sony. Even at night, the light bouncing off your walls will defeat the contrast advantage of the Sony or even a JVC.

Your room is pretty much what the W1070 was DESIGNED for -- a very bright, color accurate projector for TV replacement (and modest HTs) that is fast enough for gaming. I think your complaint about noise is overblown since I sit literally 2' from mine as it is just on my couch temporarily and it makes less noise than my last HTPC did. But ... you should talk to RLBURNSIDE about how he used an old HTPC case to make the W1070 absolutely silent. If the W1070 was in a monster sized case and weighed a god-awful 10kg like the Sony, it would be just as quiet -- it is simply a result of cramming enough small fans into a small package to cool it that makes the W1070 louder, and a hush box with a larger quieter fan can fix that for those who are very sensitive.
 
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You're referring to the white wall?

Well I want my living room to be a little fun to be around in, giving it a dark paint is just going to be depressing for everything except projection. I was thinking a good quality screen would help with this.
Why are dark colors "depressing" ? A nice cobalt blue or fire engine red is not depressing. The other option is just drapes that can be pulled out to cover the walls when needed. The only type of "screen" that can help in a room like that is an ambient light rejection screen which leaves a narrow viewing cone or has negative gain. Those require very bright projectors. The 40ES would be bright enough at 120" but only for 2D on such a screen -- 3D would be pretty dim on a negative gain screen at 120".

Also, looking at your room pics, it seems pretty impossible to ceiling mount a projector and run power and HDMI cables to it. If you were planning on setting a projector on a shelf at the back of the room, you need to carefully consider your throw distance and screen size.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Okay, I'm getting more and more convinced to get a w1070. Should I look into the the ht1075/w1070+ ?

Also, coloring the room is an option. But the color has to be a compromise.
 

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Why are dark colors "depressing" ? A nice cobalt blue or fire engine red is not depressing. The other option is just drapes that can be pulled out to cover the walls when needed. The only type of "screen" that can help in a room like that is an ambient light rejection screen which leaves a narrow viewing cone or has negative gain. Those require very bright projectors. The 40ES would be bright enough at 120" but only for 2D on such a screen -- 3D would be pretty dim on a negative gain screen at 120".

Also, looking at your room pics, it seems pretty impossible to ceiling mount a projector and run power and HDMI cables to it. If you were planning on setting a projector on a shelf at the back of the room, you need to carefully consider your throw distance and screen size.
There's a power outlet right beneath the probable position of the projector, a long HDMI cable will have no problem following the same route in the walls as my audio cables. My receiver has enough connection points to do everything else, so I just need one cable there.

Ceiling mounting is indeed going to be difficult, as I don't want to damage it. So it's probably going to be mounted to the wall, the small throwing distance of the w1070 also made it less interesting. But I'll have to read up again to be sure. Length of the room is about 16.5 feet.

Well, the entire idea of a white room is reflecting sunlight. Opening the doors and having the sunlight come in makes things lively. Limiting that, just seems depressing. I'm actually very interested in the Elitescreen Cinegrey 5D because of how it rejects the light, but I don't know about availability in Europe.
 

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There's a power outlet right beneath the probable position of the projector, a long HDMI cable will have no problem following the same route in the walls as my audio cables. My receiver has enough connection points to do everything else, so I just need one cable there.

Ceiling mounting is indeed going to be difficult, as I don't want to damage it. So it's probably going to be mounted to the wall, the small throwing distance of the w1070 also made it less interesting. But I'll have to read up again to be sure. Length of the room is about 16.5 feet.

Well, the entire idea of a white room is reflecting sunlight. Opening the doors and having the sunlight come in makes things lively. Limiting that, just seems depressing. I'm actually very interested in the Elitescreen Cinegrey 5D because of how it rejects the light, but I don't know about availability in Europe.
With a 16.5' total distance and the W1070 hung from a plain old shelf, you would still have 15' throw. That is not possible for a 120" screen. Minimum would be 140". However, there are wall mounts for projectors that extend further out from the wall. Something like this:



but with the projector facing the other way, obviously, can place a projector up to 4' away from the wall even at minimum extension. That would place the W1070 inside its zoom range for a 120" image.

The W1070+ has the same picture quality as the W1070 even though they claim 200 more lumens. Calibrated for accurate color, they seem identical, so those extra lumens if they exist don't matter. The other function is MHL which allows you to attach a smart phone or Roku type streaming device directly to the projector via HDMI cable. Then there is an "optional" extra cost wireless HDMI kit that I've never seen a price for and would never use. First gen wireless is never as reliable as a wired connection.
 

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With a 16.5' total distance and the W1070 hung from a plain old shelf, you would still have 15' throw. That is not possible for a 120" screen. Minimum would be 140". However, there are wall mounts for projectors that extend further out from the wall. Something like this:



but with the projector facing the other way, obviously, can place a projector up to 4' away from the wall even at minimum extension. That would place the W1070 inside its zoom range for a 120" image.

The W1070+ has the same picture quality as the W1070 even though they claim 200 more lumens. Calibrated for accurate color, they seem identical, so those extra lumens if they exist don't matter. The other function is MHL which allows you to attach a smart phone or Roku type streaming device directly to the projector via HDMI cable. Then there is an "optional" extra cost wireless HDMI kit that I've never seen a price for and would never use. First gen wireless is never as reliable as a wired connection.
Well that looks workable... But not really aesthetically pleasing... . Especially because it has to be hung relatively low because it has no vertical shift, it's going to be a pretty sore sight... .
 

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Well that looks workable... But not really aesthetically pleasing... . Especially because it has to be hung relatively low because it has no vertical shift, it's going to be a pretty sore sight... .
If you want aesthetically pleasing, you are going to have to step up in price. Lots of this stuff was designed to be hung in dark rooms where it's not very visible.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
If you want aesthetically pleasing, you are going to have to step up in price. Lots of this stuff was designed to be hung in dark rooms where it's not very visible.
I agree, I seem to be seeing more reasons again to get the HW40ES instead.

I've removed the AT6000 from the list for brightness reasons.

I'm also discussing with the wife what kind of color we could use for paint. I think we're both against using too dark colors. We're thinking of using (light)grey, I think that seems like a decent compromise.

However, what is still possible is buying the w1070 and accomodating with a 140" instead of 120" screen size. However, does the w1070 still have the brightness to cope with this? And does this mean our couch really have to sit beneath the projector and against the back wall?
 

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I agree, I seem to be seeing more reasons again to get the HW40ES instead.

I've removed the AT6000 from the list for brightness reasons.

I'm also discussing with the wife what kind of color we could use for paint. I think we're both against using too dark colors. We're thinking of using (light)grey, I think that seems like a decent compromise.

However, what is still possible is buying the w1070 and accomodating with a 140" instead of 120" screen size. However, does the w1070 still have the brightness to cope with this? And does this mean our couch really have to sit beneath the projector and against the back wall?
Yes, the W1070 easily has the brightness for a 140" screen. Seating distance is a personal preference, but generally 2x - 3x the height of the image is where most people like to sit to get a "movie theater" vs. "TV" feel. When playing a widescreen movie, the image will only be 51" tall, which means sitting anywhere from 8.5' to 12.5'. When playing TV or videogames, the image will be 69" tall so 11' - 16' seating is where most people would have it. It kind of depends how much of each type of content you watch as to where seating goes, but 11' should be a good compromise.

You also want about a 1/3rd of the screen height below eye level so you don't feel like you are looking "up" all the time. So the bottom of a 140" screen would be about 16" off the floor and the top 85" up. The W1070 does have some vertical lens shift so the lens could be up to 8" above the top of the image or as little as 3" above it. The mount I showed above would then be over 8' off the floor, if that affects your notion of aesthetics.
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
Yes, the W1070 easily has the brightness for a 140" screen. Seating distance is a personal preference, but generally 2x - 3x the height of the image is where most people like to sit to get a "movie theater" vs. "TV" feel. When playing a widescreen movie, the image will only be 51" tall, which means sitting anywhere from 8.5' to 12.5'. When playing TV or videogames, the image will be 69" tall so 11' - 16' seating is where most people would have it. It kind of depends how much of each type of content you watch as to where seating goes, but 11' should be a good compromise.

You also want about a 1/3rd of the screen height below eye level so you don't feel like you are looking "up" all the time. So the bottom of a 140" screen would be about 16" off the floor and the top 85" up. The W1070 does have some vertical lens shift so the lens could be up to 8" above the top of the image or as little as 3" above it. The mount I showed above would then be over 8' off the floor, if that affects your notion of aesthetics.
One last question concerning painting the walls. Is it just the back wall that needs to have a dark paint? I can't see the side walls and the projected wall making any difference, the width of the room is so large I can't imagine reflection having a high impact when the back wall is painted, not to mention that the location of the projected image is about 3 feet away from the first nearby wall. The ceiling and floor are already dark colored.

Something else that looks interesting btw, there's a new model in Europe called the TW6600. This is a newer version of the TW6100 known in the US as the Epson 5020. Apparently we do have an Epson 5025UB, however, this thing is pretty much the same price as the HW40ES. And the HW40ES is more interesting because it's simply superior at motion handling (Which I find pretty important btw)

Now, the Epson 5020 got some knock for it's image quality and the TW6600 is quoted as being not much improved in this regard, but I'm wondering what they're comparing it with. Is it better than the w1070 in terms of image quality? I'm unable to find some comparisons. This is a 3 LCD solution, I would assume the technology is simply superior to DLP.
 

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This is a 3 LCD solution, I would assume the technology is simply superior to DLP.
That would be an erroneous assumption. LCD has the largest amount of dead space called "pixel gap" of any technology. Best is LCoS, then SXRD, then DLP, and LCD is dead last. LCD projection is noted for the "screen door effect" while DLP and LCoS pixel gaps are invisible from even very close seats. It is also known for having the three separate LCD panels imperfectly aligned, which means for example that Red-Green-Blue cannot combine properly to make White without color fringes. Since DLP has a single panel, there is zero chance of misalignment. On top of that, LCD is slower than DLP which makes it a poor choice for gaming and 3D movies if those matter to you. The single area that LCD excels DLP is in contrast, and that only happens with more expensive LCD projectors like the 5020 and up -- the 2030, 8350, etc. from Epson do not have better contrast than DLP.

Light hitting a screen bounces all over a room so the only surface that becomes relatively unimportant to darken is the wall surrounding the screen. Think about what the inside of a commercial cinema looks like -- every surface is dark and non-shiny. White ceiling, floor, side walls and back wall would bounce light back onto the screen. All except the back wall can be distracting by showing a ghost image of whatever is on screen. Your ceiling should be great for projection.
 
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