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ARC Mic Positioning for Mostly MLP Listener

I sit in the MLP 95% of the time, which is the middle of our couch. The MLP is very close to the middle of the room and two feet from the back wall. All measurements for REW are taken 2' from the back wall and 2' above the cushion. I have used this for Position 1 with the ARC mic. Since this is where I have created the best possible LFE response, I would rather just use this position for all 5 sweeps of the sub. Obviously the MLP sounds great while the seat to the right or left now have modes or nulls. If I were to use ARC's 5 recommended positions I would have a much more even response across the couch at the expense of having an excellent response in the middle.

Question: What would you as the primary listener recommend? I can post the REW sweep results for each of the three seating options on the couch for both mic placement scenarios if you'd like.
 

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I had a really difficult time with ARC, but finally was able to get a response that I am pleased with (Attached). It turns out that keeping the Rumble Filter On (recommended Off during calibration) was the trick to a smoother calculated response when measuring during ARC.

Now that I have the measurements uploaded to my computer with the Rumble Filter off, I can work with different Deep Bass Boosts and types of crossovers for the sub. My subs also have three different dampening settings (currently using High) along with a 12Hz and 18Hz filter (currently using 14Hz). This will give me plenty to do.

I'm attaching a second picture to see if others could weigh in on benefits of an arc from the beginning building up to the 35Hz region. I have seen it where people build their curve up to 30Hz and then either go flat till about 50Hz, or gradually start going down from 30Hz.

ARC Curve Results
Something I don’t understand about ARC is why it has to follow a specific Target Curve. This has been really difficult as I have uploaded really nice curves that closely follow the Target Curve, and I select for ARC to not correct anything below 80Hz.

Or I give ARC a flat response (+/- 4dB from 16Hz - 80Hz) and make a 3dB Bass Boost at 60Hz then run REW only to see that there’s an 8-12dB drop from 30 - 80Hz as well as the response not looking as clean as the first one.

Question 1 When I set the sub crossover for 80Hz in the Adjust Settings tab, why does it show up as 120Hz in the Bass Management settings on the receiver once it's uploaded? If I change it, it drops the 60 - 80Hz range another 2-4dB.

Question 2 I know it’s not recommended, but I’m wondering what it would be like to do ARC before running miniDSP Auto PEQ Filters since I could at least build around the constructed curve. Any thoughts on this?
I feel your pain!

I got sick of ARC doing its thing and not being able to control it at all, no matter the settings the measured results were always different just like yours. This is what many don't realize or double check or cannot. So what I ended up doing is your last point. Ran ARC then REW EQ/MiniDSP on top and this got me the result I wanted. Keeping all the required surround and center channel correction but being able to fine tune and EQ the low frequencies. The only catch is you have to keep ARC on at all times as if you turn it off it will throw everything out. So far I've been happy.
 

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I sit in the MLP 95% of the time, which is the middle of our couch. The MLP is very close to the middle of the room and two feet from the back wall. All measurements for REW are taken 2' from the back wall and 2' above the cushion. I have used this for Position 1 with the ARC mic. Since this is where I have created the best possible LFE response, I would rather just use this position for all 5 sweeps of the sub. Obviously the MLP sounds great while the seat to the right or left now have modes or nulls. If I were to use ARC's 5 recommended positions I would have a much more even response across the couch at the expense of having an excellent response in the middle.

Question: What would you as the primary listener recommend? I can post the REW sweep results for each of the three seating options on the couch for both mic placement scenarios if you'd like.
You wouldn't get any better response. In that case only one measurement would be enough.
 

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I feel your pain!

I got sick of ARC doing its thing and not being able to control it at all, no matter the settings the measured results were always different just like yours. This is what many don't realize or double check or cannot. So what I ended up doing is your last point. Ran ARC then REW EQ/MiniDSP on top and this got me the result I wanted. Keeping all the required surround and center channel correction but being able to fine tune and EQ the low frequencies. The only catch is you have to keep ARC on at all times as if you turn it off it will throw everything out. So far I've been happy.
Thanks for the response. I guess the benefits of the miniDSP can throw a wrench in the benefits of ARC. Believe me though, ARC works wonders in my room without a minDSP.
 

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Question 1 When I set the sub crossover for 80Hz in the Adjust Settings tab, why does it show up as 120Hz in the Bass Management settings on the receiver once it's uploaded? If I change it, it drops the 60 - 80Hz range another 2-4dB.

Question 2 I know it’s not recommended, but I’m wondering what it would be like to do ARC before running miniDSP Auto PEQ Filters since I could at least build around the constructed curve. Any thoughts on this?
1) The 120Hz in the Bass Management screen in your Anthem is the crossover. The setting in the Genesis Adjust Settings for the subwoofer is the "Minimum Correction Frequency". That's the lowest frequency Genesis will apply it's corrections to. For instance if you set it 50Hz then Genesis will not apply EQ to the sub below 50Hz and your sub chart will look a lot different.

2) I always run Genesis first with all EQ filters and everything else in the MiniDSP flat as if it's not even in my system. I just leave config 4 setup this way and switch to it when running Genesis. Then after Genesis I run REW and apply the filters to the miniDSP.

I do this because I build a house curve in REW and apply it to the miniDSP and if I apply the REW house curve filters to the miniDSP first and then run Genesis, then Genesis will flatten the house curve.

I really don't see anything wrong if someone ran Genesis first and then used REW and the miniDSP to fine tune things to their liking. It's really no do different than running Genesis and then using the Genesis software to add bass boost or tilt.
 

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I sit in the MLP 95% of the time, which is the middle of our couch. The MLP is very close to the middle of the room and two feet from the back wall. All measurements for REW are taken 2' from the back wall and 2' above the cushion. I have used this for Position 1 with the ARC mic. Since this is where I have created the best possible LFE response, I would rather just use this position for all 5 sweeps of the sub. Obviously the MLP sounds great while the seat to the right or left now have modes or nulls. If I were to use ARC's 5 recommended positions I would have a much more even response across the couch at the expense of having an excellent response in the middle.

Question: What would you as the primary listener recommend? I can post the REW sweep results for each of the three seating options on the couch for both mic placement scenarios if you'd like.
Don’t run all five measurements in one spot unless your head is infinitely small and always in the same exact spot.

If however you have a head with two ears, some mass in between, and sometimes move a few inches one way or another, you’ll be happier to run the measurements in a small area the size of a beach ball. That way you’ll be getting similar correction to each ear.
 

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it's a beta. Need to go to beta release from the downloads drop down menu



https://www.anthemarc.com/downloads/beta.php
I have the Beta, but it wasn’t showing up as the v.1.2.3. Just clicked on th link you provided, and it does now. Strange. Thanks.

Do I need to remeasure, or can I use sweeps I currently have? I’m assuming I can.
 

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Don’t run all five measurements in one spot unless your head is infinitely small and always in the same exact spot.

If however you have a head with two ears, some mass in between, and sometimes move a few inches one way or another, you’ll be happier to run the measurements in a small area the size of a beach ball. That way you’ll be getting similar correction to each ear.
I’ll try this and see what I get for results. Thanks!
 

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1) The 120Hz in the Bass Management screen in your Anthem is the crossover. The setting in the Genesis Adjust Settings for the subwoofer is the "Minimum Correction Frequency". That's the lowest frequency Genesis will apply it's corrections to. For instance if you set it 50Hz then Genesis will not apply EQ to the sub below 50Hz and your sub chart will look a lot different.
Thanks for your response. Let me clarify though. In the Adjusment settings tab in the software, choose the Subwoofer’s crossover to be 80Hz. This is separate from the Minimum Correction Frequency (MCF). I usually leave the MCF at 15Hz or I put it to 80Hz. Regardless of where I put the MCE, once I’ve uploaded the file to the receiver, it has arbitrarily set the Bass Management Level for the sub to 120Hz. I can’t seem to figure out how to make what I select in the Adjustment section in the software actually upload up to the receiver. I will provide pictures of my sweeps tomorrow as it still seems that the subs are crossed over at 89Hz base on the roll off.
 

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Thanks for the response. I guess the benefits of the miniDSP can throw a wrench in the benefits of ARC. Believe me though, ARC works wonders in my room without a minDSP.
Yep, ARC would be nice it if actually did what it predicts but as we both experienced and measured the prediction before we run the process and the results after are two distinct results. As opposed to REW EQ which is remarkably spot on with its predictions and results. However running them in reversed order seems to be a good compromise. I wish I could just run ARC without touching anything below the x over point.

Another thing to watch out for and I learned this the hard way too is phase between the mains and subs. This is yet another thing that no one will tell you not even Anthem themselves. They say adjust sub distance anytime before or after calibration. BS!! And its not physical distance its phase/delay control!

I found that running ARC also screws up phase shifts big time by trying to align the subs with the mains. The proof of this is again is in the control measurement graphs. Before ARC I manually align the two subs beautifully so there is just one phase shift so they play nicely together then adjust sub distance to the mains in the AVR to align them altogether. This gets rid of any unwanted dips around the x over point and all is nice and tight.

All is fine until I ran ARC! After the upload I get 4-6 phase shifts and valleys of dips around the crossover point. THIS IS the time to align them again to get rid of the dips and make sure they integrate well, so you do need to re-adjust sub distance AFTER running ARC as well to smooth out the crossover and fully integrate the subs.
Again just do your measurement before and after with phase displaying and you'll see.

No one would notice this without measuring the results. Yet once adjusted well the results are great but automatically it won't do it. The phase shifts remain as ARC does who knows what though but it does not seem to affect the end result once distance has been dialed in.

It would worth talking to someone at Anthem to fully understand what it actually does but I doubt we would get an answer.
 

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Yep, ARC would be nice it if actually did what it predicts but as we both experienced and measured the prediction before we run the process and the results after are two distinct results. As opposed to REW EQ which is remarkably spot on with its predictions and results. However running them in reversed order seems to be a good compromise. I wish I could just run ARC without touching anything below the x over point.

Another thing to watch out for and I learned this the hard way too is phase between the mains and subs. This is yet another thing that no one will tell you not even Anthem themselves. They say adjust sub distance anytime before or after calibration. BS!! And its not physical distance its phase/delay control!

I found that running ARC also screws up phase shifts big time by trying to align the subs with the mains. The proof of this is again is in the control measurement graphs. Before ARC I manually align the two subs beautifully so there is just one phase shift so they play nicely together then adjust sub distance to the mains in the AVR to align them altogether. This gets rid of any unwanted dips around the x over point and all is nice and tight.

All is fine until I ran ARC! After the upload I get 4-6 phase shifts and valleys of dips around the crossover point. THIS IS the time to align them again to get rid of the dips and make sure they integrate well, so you do need to re-adjust sub distance AFTER running ARC as well to smooth out the crossover and fully integrate the subs.
Again just do your measurement before and after with phase displaying and you'll see.

No one would notice this without measuring the results. Yet once adjusted well the results are great but automatically it won't do it. The phase shifts remain as ARC does who knows what though but it does not seem to affect the end result once distance has been dialed in.

It would worth talking to someone at Anthem to fully understand what it actually does but I doubt we would get an answer.
I appreciate the feedback.

Using the Acoustic Timing Reference, it’s showing my L and R are millimeters off (can’t do anything about it with current equipment, and Anthem doesn’t use tenths of a foot for measure. The subs are within an inch according to the response time. Currently I have sub distance at 19’ when the center of the closest woofer is 4.5’ and the furthest is 11’ away from the MLP. When using miniDSP to apply a delay, the measurements change a fraction of an inch either way with the slightest change. I’ve added anywhere between .15 and 1.0 delay but the result will be just ahead or just behind the mains.

I’m having another AVS member look at my mdat file to help figure out the crossover point. It seems that am missing some material just after the crossover point. If we can’t fix it with timing, I might see about changing the subs crossover to 90He or even 100Hz in the Adjustment tab, and upload it again since changing it manually through the receiver didn’t really seem to do anything to the sub. I didn’t however, raise the LCR above 80Hz. This could be the reason also. I’m still learning.
Thanks for the info. I may need to contact Anthem. I have a fairly flexible schedule to do so.
 

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I have the Beta, but it wasn’t showing up as the v.1.2.3. Just clicked on th link you provided, and it does now. Strange. Thanks.

Do I need to remeasure, or can I use sweeps I currently have? I’m assuming I can.

No worries.


If you ran with 1.2.2, I think you can use these sweeps with 1.2.3 since, from the release notes, the only difference was a fix for Persona 9H (which they also note to rerun sweeps for this fix to take affect). I reused my 1.2.2 beta sweeps with 1.2.3 beta and sounds fine.
 
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I appreciate the feedback.

Using the Acoustic Timing Reference, it’s showing my L and R are millimeters off (can’t do anything about it with current equipment, and Anthem doesn’t use tenths of a foot for measure. The subs are within an inch according to the response time. Currently I have sub distance at 19’ when the center of the closest woofer is 4.5’ and the furthest is 11’ away from the MLP. When using miniDSP to apply a delay, the measurements change a fraction of an inch either way with the slightest change. I’ve added anywhere between .15 and 1.0 delay but the result will be just ahead or just behind the mains.

I’m having another AVS member look at my mdat file to help figure out the crossover point. It seems that am missing some material just after the crossover point. If we can’t fix it with timing, I might see about changing the subs crossover to 90He or even 100Hz in the Adjustment tab, and upload it again since changing it manually through the receiver didn’t really seem to do anything to the sub. I didn’t however, raise the LCR above 80Hz. This could be the reason also. I’m still learning.
Thanks for the info. I may need to contact Anthem. I have a fairly flexible schedule to do so.
No worries, yes that is an issue as we cannot accurately fix phase/delay with the rough adjustments in the AVR which results in slightly out of phase results no matter what. It would be nice to see what Anthem has to say about this.

You can raise the x over to even at 100hz but that won't change the problem with delay the issues will just move up the frequency range. What we need is the ability to accurately adjust, which we don't seem to have in the AVR.
Please do let me know if you make any progress on this front as I am keen to understand what can be done to mitigate this.

I might give Anthem a hoy as well.
 

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I've just sent an email to Anthem, see what they have to say.
 

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Crossover Point and Overall Response

I've attached two pictures showing the 10-20kHz results using Acoustic Timing Reference. I used 1/6 smoothing so it's easier to read.

Does it look like I'm missing much around the crossover point? In my very limited experience with what it should look like around the crossover point, it looks like I'm not missing anything. However, I was expecting everything to meet at 80Hz. Maybe there is a very slight delay with the center causing it to be just off?

I thought I had a L+R with and without Subs, but I guess I don't. I could do one of those if that's what's needed instead of the individuals.

Please Note that even though the sub has (120Hz) next to it is not what I set it at pre upload. I set it at 80Hz. The 120Hz is what's set in the Bass Management for LFE.

Before measurements, I make the following changes below to bring my subs to +2.5dB over what is uploaded to the receiver.
1. Anthem Level Calibration: From +3 to +8
2. Anthem Subwoofer Level: From 0 to -5
3. miniDSP: Input +2.5

Pic 1 has no subs on with the mains, while pic 2 has the subs on with them.
 

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Thanks for your response. Let me clarify though. In the Adjusment settings tab in the software, choose the Subwoofer’s crossover to be 80Hz. This is separate from the Minimum Correction Frequency (MCF). I usually leave the MCF at 15Hz or I put it to 80Hz. Regardless of where I put the MCE, once I’ve uploaded the file to the receiver, it has arbitrarily set the Bass Management Level for the sub to 120Hz. I can’t seem to figure out how to make what I select in the Adjustment section in the software actually upload up to the receiver. I will provide pictures of my sweeps tomorrow as it still seems that the subs are crossed over at 89Hz base on the roll off.
Matt so we're on the same page where are you seeing the sub crossover? I see these on these on the sub page in Genesis.
 

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I've attached two pictures showing the 10-20kHz results using Acoustic Timing Reference. I used 1/6 smoothing so it's easier to read.

Does it look like I'm missing much around the crossover point? In my very limited experience with what it should look like around the crossover point, it looks like I'm not missing anything. However, I was expecting everything to meet at 80Hz. Maybe there is a very slight delay with the center causing it to be just off?

I thought I had a L+R with and without Subs, but I guess I don't. I could do one of those if that's what's needed instead of the individuals.

Please Note that even though the sub has (120Hz) next to it is not what I set it at pre upload. I set it at 80Hz. The 120Hz is what's set in the Bass Management for LFE.

Before measurements, I make the following changes below to bring my subs to +2.5dB over what is uploaded to the receiver.
1. Anthem Level Calibration: From +3 to +8
2. Anthem Subwoofer Level: From 0 to -5
3. miniDSP: Input +2.5

Pic 1 has no subs on with the mains, while pic 2 has the subs on with them.
Can you just take one measurement with the two mains and subs and just one with wit the two mains and no sub and post? So we just have one line in the graph combined and please don't use smoothing.
 

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Matt so we're on the same page where are you seeing the sub crossover? I see these on these on the sub page in Genesis.
Thank you for pointing this out. That went right over my head, and I'm a little embarrassed. I've never looked at the LFE portion. I've always looked at the I've been referring to the High Frequency Extension as the crossover point since it was the first option, and the LFE only goes up to 80Hz.

The LFE should be set to 80zH, shouldn't it. If I select 80Hz for the LFE, then what should I select for the HFE? What does the HFE really do then?

I noticed that I need to set the LFE Slope "Flat" or "1st" in order to avoid a big rising curve to the 40Hz mark.

I really appreciate your help!
 

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Thank you for pointing this out. That went right over my head, and I'm a little embarrassed. I've never looked at the LFE portion. I've always looked at the I've been referring to the High Frequency Extension as the crossover point since it was the first option, and the LFE only goes up to 80Hz.

The LFE should be set to 80zH, shouldn't it. If I select 80Hz for the LFE, then what should I select for the HFE? What does the HFE really do then?

I noticed that I need to set the LFE Slope "Flat" or "1st" in order to avoid a big rising curve to the 40Hz mark.

I really appreciate your help!
Oh no reason to be embarrassed there's a lot going on with some things in Genesis and others in the Anthem itself. The High Frequency Extension is the highest frequency the sub will play. You should leave it to whatever Genesis sets it at. As you know the Low Frequency Extension is the lowest frequency the sub will play. So if your HFE is 250Hz and your LFE is 15Hz then your sub will play frequencies sent to it between 15-250Hz so your sub has a high and low limit to what it will play..

The subwoofer crossover is actually in the Anthem on the Bass Management screen and mine was set by Genesis at 120Hz. I'd set the sub to flat and let it play as low as it is capable of. The sub has an internal limiter so you won't damage the sub.
 
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