[njandy]

I have read a lot of info on this forum on the benefits of having 3 perfectly matched fronts. I decided to go with paradigm studio 10's for the fronts and was going to get a third for my center and have it vertically standing right below my LCD.


When i went to my paradigm dealer he tried to talk me out of the 3rd studio 10 and into the matching center. He claimed that the center has an additional mid that is 1.5 inches (about the size of your mouth) and that is where most of the dialog will come from. That mouth sized speaker will do a better job of producing a clear voice track than the larger mid in the studio 10.


Is there any validity to this? Besides going against all that i had read on this forum, the center is also a lot more expensive than another studio 10.


My room is a 22 x 22 room with a powered sub dsp-3100 and i believe i will get paradigm SE-1 for the rears.


Thanks,

 

[bluesky636]

Without rehashing the pros and cons of different front/center speaker configurations, your best course of action would be to listen to both at your dealer's and make a choice based on what sounds best to you.

 

[RonaldoCombs]



Quote:
Originally Posted by njandy /forum/post/18110744


I have read a lot of info on this forum on the benefits of having 3 perfectly matched fronts. I decided to go with paradigm studio 10's for the fronts and was going to get a third for my center and have it vertically standing right below my LCD.


When i went to my paradigm dealer he tried to talk me out of the 3rd studio 10 and into the matching center. He claimed that the center has an additional mid that is 1.5 inches (about the size of your mouth) and that is where most of the dialog will come from. That mouth sized speaker will do a better job of producing a clear voice track than the larger mid in the studio 10.


Is there any validity to this? Besides going against all that i had read on this forum, the center is also a lot more expensive than another studio 10.


My room is a 22 x 22 room with a powered sub dsp-3100 and i believe i will get paradigm SE-1 for the rears.


Thanks,

If my dealer made a comment about a speaker being better because it had a "mouth sized mid" I would try and find another dealer.


Ron

 

[njandy]

i agree. I am trying to convince him to lend me both for a day so i could listen to them in my home. I do have a recliner that is very off center from the TV that my wife and i often watch tv in. I doubt at the store i will hear the off center mtm issues since the acoustics are not great there.


I just wanted a sounding board for the small mid and the vocals comment.

 

[Tulpa]

"Mouth sized mid." Okay, that's a new one.


You're correct in that for most instances, a matched three front will get you the best soundstage. Some horizontal centers are designed to limit their disadvantages, but most are just a horizontal speaker.


I imagine the dealer is trying to sell you on the horizontal center because they tend to be pricier (more profitable) than a standard bookshelf.


Godzilla has a mouth about fifty feet across. Does that mean I need a fifty foot speaker to properly reproduce his roars?

 

[DaBuzzard]



Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulpa /forum/post/18111218


"Mouth sized mid." Okay, that's a new one.


You're correct in that for most instances, a matched three front will get you the best soundstage. Some horizontal centers are designed to limit their disadvantages, but most are just a horizontal speaker.

I imagine the dealer is trying to sell you on the horizontal center because they tend to be pricier (more profitable) than a standard bookshelf.


Godzilla has a mouth about fifty feet across. Does that mean I need a fifty foot speaker to properly reproduce his roars?

That is likely part of it - the other part is that the dealer will be left with an orphan speaker as they generally buy pairs, not singles.


Hmmmmm, 50' speakers

Be kind of fun to see all the neighbors running down the street screaming but I expect the power requirements and negative WAF might put a dent in those plans

 

[sivadselim]

Although Pdigms 3-way center channel speakers are well-designed and the vertical mid and tweeter arrangement eliminates some of the issues associated with horizontal center channel speakers, the presence of the midrange driver, alone, (no matter what size it is) does not necessarily mean that the speaker will make for a better center channel speaker. It might. But there is no reason that a speaker designed for proper L/R channel use, no matter how many drivers it possesses, can't also be expected to reproduce center channel info just as well as it reproduces L/R channel info. That the center channel info contains dialog and is somehow different is a bit of a red herring.


Since we are talking about the Studio10s, here, though, I suspect that the 3-way center the dealer is presenting you with, in this instance, is considerably larger than the 10s. Sure, on its own, it is very possible that the center channel speaker might actually perform better (whatever defines this) as a center channel speaker than a Studio10. We're comparing apples and oranges. But using it would, of course, preclude a matching front soundstage. In fact, you'd be using a 3-way center speaker that, because of its extra midrange driver, would probably be voiced differently than the 2-way Studio10s.


This is a situation where the benefit of the matching front soundstage has to be weighed against the benefit of the well-designed and probably more than ample center channel speaker. Don't know what to tell you. If you were considering, for example, 3 - Studio40s, I do not think there would be as much of a decision. That the Studio10s are quite small and the center channel speaker you are considering probably larger, as well as well-designed, presents a dilemma.

 

[XanderMoser]



Quote:
Originally Posted by njandy /forum/post/18110744


He claimed that the center has an additional mid that is 1.5 inches (about the size of your mouth) and that is where most of the dialog will come from. That mouth sized speaker will do a better job of producing a clear voice track than the larger mid in the studio 10.

Hahahahah

Oh my God. I wish I was around when things like this get said.


If that is the case, my system re-creates cymbals very very realistically, with my 4x 15" subs!


Good points were made above. The center may be a better speaker in and of itself, as each driver has a more narrow frequency range to play, meaning more optimization and less stress on each driver. However, having matching LCR can really create a great surround sound experience. When things pan across the front and you cannot hear the switch between speakers, it is a wonderful illusion. No distractions, only movie enjoyment.


I would suggest the 3 identical fronts, as long as they fit well in your setup. Cheaper too, never hurts.

 

[craig john]

First, read this:
http://www.audioholics.com/education...peaker-designs

Then, read this:
http://www.audioholics.com/education...hannel-speaker


I don't know the best answer for you, but I have 3 identical front speakers and it is clearly the best front soundstage I've had in my theater. I previously had several iterations of horizontal CC's, and the identical center is better. Of course, it is optimally placed behind an acoustically transparent screen. If you are placing yours below a flat panel, that will impact the benefit.


Your best course is to get the dealer to let your try each center speaker in your home and system. Good luck.


Craig

 

[tvrgeek]

My center, the "matching one" from the line, is voiced quite different from my mains. (Paradigm Studio 20's with cc450 center). Drives me crazy. If you need a center, I would make sure it is voiced exactly like the mains. Identical is a good way. Proper design another. Not sure it matters that much with rears. For myself, I am just going to remove the center. Don't need it as we sit between the mains and center localization is not a problem at all. When I build my next speakers, I will save the money from the center to buy even better drivers.

 

[njandy]



Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john /forum/post/18113733


First, read this:
http://www.audioholics.com/education...peaker-designs

Then, read this:
http://www.audioholics.com/education...hannel-speaker


I don't know the best answer for you, but I have 3 identical front speakers and it is clearly the best front soundstage I've had in my theater. I previously had several iterations of horizontal CC's, and the identical center is better. Of course, it is optimally placed behind an acoustically transparent screen. If you are placing yours below a flat panel, that will impact the benefit.


Your best course is to get the dealer to let your try each center speaker in your home and system. Good luck.


Craig

It's interesting that both those articles come to different conclusions. I just measured my viewing area. When watching from the couch I am 11' from the tv so that is what most of the articles relate too. If I am watching from my recliner (or love seat) the viewing angle is 41.2 degrees which is very off angle. Usually either my wife or I am in the recliner


The center that they are proposing is the cc-490 which is a 3-way 4 driver wtmw design. It's the matching center.

 

[Lhasa-lover]

In the last 15+ years I have had no less than 12 different speaker setups in my systems. I just like to change things and play around with both speakers and electronics. I usually buy used, but not always, and then either sell them off for new ones or put them in storage if I like them. Everything from Dunlavy, to Vandersteen, to Triangle, to Infinity, to Axiom, to Warfdale, and the list goes on. In every system but one I have had horizontal center channel speakers. None of those systems compared to the one where I had three identical speakers across the front. Now it could very well be that I just happened to like that particular brand and had nothing to do with the fact that is was idential to the mains rather than a horizontal arrangement. But all I can offer is that the difference was palpable. My current display and electronics configuration do not let me do this any longer so I have to compromise with a horizontal center. The advice to listen to both is the only really valid advice. Otherwise all you will get is what I just did...give you my personal opinion. If I could go with three identical speakers, I would do so in a heartbeat.

 

[craig john]



Quote:
Originally Posted by njandy /forum/post/18119113


It's interesting that both those articles come to different conclusions.

That's why I posted both articles.

Chris Seymour, the author of the first article, makes and sells Acoustically Transparent screens. He has a vested interest in generating interest in identical CC's and AT screens. Having said that, I have one of his screens plus 3 identical speakers up front, and I can attest that it is the best configuration for HT, at least in my room. Having experienced it, I would never revert to a horizontal CC placed sub-optimally above or below the screen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by njandy /forum/post/18119113


I just measured my viewing area. When watching from the couch I am 11' from the tv so that is what most of the articles relate too. If I am watching from my recliner (or love seat) the viewing angle is 41.2 degrees which is very off angle. Usually either my wife or I am in the recliner


The center that they are proposing is the cc-490 which is a 3-way 4 driver wtmw design. It's the matching center.

>40 degrees off-axis will be enough to be in the comb-filtered region. However, that is far enough off-axis that you might even be outside the left or right speaker. In that case, the imaging will be so compromised that comb filtering will be the least of your concerns. I suggest you optimize your system for the seats on the couch and then do any "serious" listening from there.


Craig

 

[J_Palmer_Cass]



Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john /forum/post/18121772


>40 degrees off-axis will be enough to be in the comb-filtered region. However, that is far enough off-axis that you might even be outside the left or right speaker. In that case, the imaging will be so compromised that comb filtering will be the least of your concerns. I suggest you optimize your system for the seats on the couch and then do any "serious" listening from there.


Craig

He said that he is looking at a WMTW center speaker. Comb filtering is not an issue with a WMTW speaker.


He may have to aim the center speaker a bit as a compromise, but there is nothing fatal with that seating setup.

 

[J_Palmer_Cass]



Quote:
Originally Posted by njandy /forum/post/18110802


i agree. I am trying to convince him to lend me both for a day so i could listen to them in my home. I do have a recliner that is very off center from the TV that my wife and i often watch tv in. I doubt at the store i will hear the off center mtm issues since the acoustics are not great there.


I just wanted a sounding board for the small mid and the vocals comment.

and

Quote:
Originally Posted by njandy /forum/post/18119113



The center that they are proposing is the cc-490 which is a 3-way 4 driver wtmw design. It's the matching center.

WMTW speakers do not have the comb filtering issues that an MTM speaker has. The lack of a comb filtering issue of the CC-490 is noted here:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/home-...m.html?start=1



"Along the same vein as the 10, the CC-490 is Paradigm's essay at reducing the size of their already phenomenal and much lauded Reference series dedicated center channel speakers. A mere 19-1/4" wide (about the same as a typical AVR or disc player) it is remarkable that the CC-490 is still a true three was design with the same 1" tweeter, vertically aligned with a 3.5" midrange of the same construction as the 10's mid/bass, that set flanked by a pair of 5.5" woofers using a more traditional polypropylene cone material. Crossovers are quoted as 2.1 kHz and 500 Hz, this last being reasonably below any point where off axis combing would be any issue."

 

[njandy]



Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass /forum/post/18122781


WMTW speakers do not have the comb filtering issues that an MTM speaker has!

I have read that there are disadvantages of a WMTW design but I havent read any specifics. What are the disadvantages? Would they be appropriate for off angle viewing?


Thanks again!

 

[J_Palmer_Cass]



Quote:
Originally Posted by njandy /forum/post/18123060


I have read that there are disadvantages of a WMTW design but I havent read any specifics. What are the disadvantages? Would they be appropriate for off angle viewing?


Thanks again!

I don't know of any disadvantages of the WMTW design except that they are more expensive to make. The C-490 FR looks good at least to 30 degrees off axis. I would give them a listen off axis in the store.


http://www.paradigm.com/en/pdf/produ...tudiocc490.pdf




I have six WMTW speakers all the way around. My particular speakers can be used horizontal or vertical.