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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm very interested in Definitive Technology ceiling speakers, and I have several questions. I hope you can help me.



My main concern is to have a good 5.1 home theatre set-up (for Blu-Ray, DVD, TV and DIVX), and I need the speakers to be in the ceiling.

I also listen to music occasionally.


I was thinking of two configurations :

- 5 x UIW RCS II

- or 3 x UIW RCS II (for front and center) et 2 x UIW RSS II (for surround)


I have made a plan of my living room so that you can give me an advice on the best set-up. See the attached file.




You can see there is no wall at the back of my living room. There are just three walls (left, right and front). The space is completely open between the kitchen and the living room.


Given that, what do you recommend ? Is it best to have bipolar speakers for the surround in my specific living room ? Or not ?

And if the UIW RCS II or UIW RSS II are best for me, how do you recommend to place them and to orientate them ?


My ceiling is at 2,50m height, and my fake ceiling at 2.30m height. So because of the 45-degree angle of the UIW RCII, I figure I need to put them 2,30m in front of the listeners. In that configuration, the sound is perfectly aimed at them. Is it true ? What do you recommend ?


Thanks for your help,


Fred
 

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The thing to remember is that ANY in-wall or in-ceiling speaker does not have an optimally designed enclosure to get the best performance out of the drivers.


They are very much an inferior product, and their performance is strictly 3rd-rate. You don't get much for your money.


No one who expects good-quality sound should even consider them. Conventional speakers on stands will sound much better.


If you have absolutely NO other option, they might be acceptable for use as surround speakers, but not for front or center speakers.


Having the sound coming from the ceiling is intuitively incorrect and unnatural, in any case.


Dipole speakers are very tricky to place, and do not work well in many rooms. It is hard to prevent unwanted reflections in most cases.


Two Polk RTi-A1 speakers with a CSI-A4 center speaker is a front combination that sounds very nice and will cost around $600.


You can't even come close to their sound quality with in-ceiling speakers (unless you get some PSB speakers that cost around $2500).
 

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In-ceiling speakers are not as ideal as in-room or in-wall, but not everyone can make in-wall or in-room speakers work. You have done your homework and have found an in-ceiling design that is the most ideal. Enclosed, and with the angle that will give you the best sound at the listening position.


I would go with three UIW RCS speakers in the front, and two UIW RSS speakers for the side surrounds. I have a very open room like you, but use in-wall RLS II speakers behind an acoustically transparent screen for front, and RSS III for surrounds. You can get good sound with these speakers, and I would ignore the comments above mine since this person is 100% ignorant on in-wall/in-ceiling speaker design.


As for speaker placement, where is your listening position where you typically sit? And are you able to center the TV on the wall more?
 

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Yes, it is always best to ignore the facts (and the laws of physics), when you already have your mind made up.


Anything that might tend to conflict with your preconceived notions must be dismissed as ignorant and ill-informed.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman  /t/1468482/definitive-technology-ceiling-speakers#post_23209368


Yes, it is always best to ignore the facts (and the laws of physics), when you already have your mind made up.


Anything that might tend to conflict with your preconceived notions must be dismissed as ignorant and ill-informed.

You continue to prove your ignorance at AVS. These speakers have 45 degree angled baffles and if placed right, the sound will project right at the listening position. This is really no different that people placing horizontal center channel speakers below their TV's and then angling the center upward towards the LP. If properly setup, I doubt you could tell these speakers are in the ceiling at the LP.


We are not talking about poorly designed in-ceiling speakers that have the woofer or tweeter firing straight down, or at a slight angle. We are also talking about a speaker that is fully enclosed.


Yes or no answer, have you ever listened to these particular speakers in a properly insalled/designed room?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by commsysman  /t/1468482/definitive-technology-ceiling-speakers#post_23209368


Yes, it is always best to ignore the facts (and the laws of physics), when you already have your mind made up.


Anything that might tend to conflict with your preconceived notions must be dismissed as ignorant and ill-informed.

Now you've got my interest... which laws of physics are violated here? Please be very specific.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Well, my questions were not wether a ceiling setup is good or not. I don't have any choice regarding this matter.

So it will be in ceiling speakers.

But I want good in ceiling speakers for a correct price. And that's exactly what Definitive Technology is offering.


Now, it is settled, I thank you for your help.

And thanks Ack_bk for your answers. It's helpfull.

What is the exact placement of your surround speakers ?

Do you think it is best to go the bipole or the monopole route ? Are you happy with your actual bipole speakers ?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
The TV is not in the center because there will be two people watching it: one laying in the first couch (the one on the left) and one sitting in the second couch (the one on the right).

And we absolutely need the couch as they are.

The wall on the right is a 10-meters window (2,5-meters height).
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fgueho  /t/1468482/definitive-technology-ceiling-speakers#post_23209790


Well, my questions were not wether a ceiling setup is good or not. I don't have any choice regarding this matter.

So it will be in ceiling speakers.

But I want good in ceiling speakers for a correct price. And that's exactly what Definitive Technology is offering.


Now, it is settled, I thank you for your help.

And thanks Ack_bk for your answers. It's helpfull.

What is the exact placement of your surround speakers ?

Do you think it is best to go the bipole or the monopole route ? Are you happy with your actual bipole speakers ?

For my setup (I have 7.4 setup) I have the side surrounds on either side of the couch. I would think your setup would something like this:



Bipole vs monopole is a preference thing. For side surrounds I like my bipole speakers, for a 7.0 config, I think I actually prefer monopole for the rear two speakers. I am very happy with the surround sound from my bipole RSS speakers. For what it is worth
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fgueho  /t/1468482/definitive-technology-ceiling-speakers#post_23209790


Do you think it is best to go the bipole or the monopole route ? Are you happy with your actual bipole speakers ?


I asked this exact question for 5.1/7.1 placement in my room (almost exactly your setup, but with 10ft ceilings) to Paul Scarpelli (resident expert in regards to Triad speakers)... his reply:

"I try to avoid LCRs for surrounds because of their limited dispersion pattern and high directivity. If the seating is close to the rear speakers, dipole surrounds will work best; if they're away from the seating, InCeiling Gold/6 Sats would be a great choice at a good price."



So, in the context of your room... monopoles would be an option for rear surrounds in a 7.1 setup given some space between the couch and the speakers (if you ever decided to go that route), but with lower ceilings than in my room, the case for dipole right/left surround is even stronger in your room (with only about 6-7ft from listeners ears to speaker location)... would be hard to get the enveloping ambiance effects from monopoles placed as depicted in your sketch... in the definitive lineup, ack_bk's recommendation of RCS LCRs and RSS surrounds is the safest bet. You will need a sub though, do you have that figured out? I'm curious, as I am making the same decision right now with a VERY similar room.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fgueho  /t/1468482/definitive-technology-ceiling-speakers#post_23208949



My ceiling is at 2,50m height, and my fake ceiling at 2.30m height. So because of the 45-degree angle of the UIW RCII, I figure I need to put them 2,30m in front of the listeners. In that configuration, the sound is perfectly aimed at them. Is it true ? What do you recommend ?


Fred

Keep in mind your ear level is ~1m above the floor... I'm not sure this means you should place the speakers that close (1.3m) though, I'd contact DefTech and ask their advice.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dougri  /t/1468482/definitive-technology-ceiling-speakers#post_23210167


I asked this exact question for 5.1/7.1 placement in my room (almost exactly your setup, but with 10ft ceilings) to Paul Scarpelli (resident expert in regards to Triad speakers)... his reply:

"I try to avoid LCRs for surrounds because of their limited dispersion pattern and high directivity. If the seating is close to the rear speakers, dipole surrounds will work best; if they're away from the seating, InCeiling Gold/6 Sats would be a great choice at a good price."



So, in the context of your room... monopoles would be an option for rear surrounds in a 7.1 setup given some space between the couch and the speakers (if you ever decided to go that route), but with lower ceilings than in my room, the case for dipole right/left surround is even stronger in your room (with only about 6-7ft from listeners ears to speaker location)... would be hard to get the enveloping ambiance effects from monopoles placed as depicted in your sketch... in the definitive lineup, ack_bk's recommendation of RCS LCRs and RSS surrounds is the safest bet. You will need a sub though, do you have that figured out? I'm curious, as I am making the same decision right now with a VERY similar room.
Hello Dougri, ack_bk and Fgueho, Paul Scarpelli is a good guy and quite knowledgeable. I sold Triad as a rep for quite a while. I agree that ack_bk's recommendation is a good one. Yes, in-ceiling speakers are a compromise. But they beat the heck out of no speakers, which often is the only alternative. Dougri, we have two in-wall subs that can be used either as singles or twins with the SubAmp 600, IW Sub Reference and IW Sub 10 / 10. So if you must go in the wall, you have options at several price points. If you need compact subs, the SuperCube 2000 and 4000 are small but have solid output. Good luck and I hope this helps - best, Joe
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I have contacted Definitive Technology, and here is the answer :


"Thanks for your recent email to Definitive Technology. Given your room layout and size, I would recommend using 3 x UIW RCS IIs as your front left, right and center speakers. I would then recommend using 2 x UIW RSS IIs as your surrounds (when used as surround speakers, we have found the UIW RCS IIs produce a bit too much focus or directional quality….)


When setting up your UIW RSS IIs, I would recommend placing them directly above (and to the left and right) of your main listening position. In this location, I would recommend placing them approximately .5 m away from the side walls your room. I would then orient them so their drivers and tweeters are facing toward the left and right in your room. This would allow them to produce a great balance of focused sound and spaciousness.


You are correct with your description of where to place the front UIW RCS IIs. Placing them 2.3 m in front of the main listening position would be ideal."
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by dougri  /t/1468482/definitive-technology-ceiling-speakers#post_23210329


Due to lack of output, or lack of even response due to difficulty in dealing with room modes?

It is just that I like bass. My subwoofer is very good and can fill a small room. But I like huge impact in battle scene, so I'm thinking of adding a new subwoofer.

But it is totally optional. We'll see...


So it's not because of lack of output, or lack of even response, or anything like that. I'm just a bit greedy !
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by dougri  /t/1468482/definitive-technology-ceiling-speakers#post_23210349


Keep in mind your ear level is ~1m above the floor... I'm not sure this means you should place the speakers that close (1.3m) though, I'd contact DefTech and ask their advice.

Well, I haven't though of that. And it perfectly makes sense.

But it seems to me too that the speakers would be very close.

I will ask DefTech. Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Here is Deftech answer:


"First, you are correct. Ear level is approximately 1 m off the floor. Next, in a perfect world, we would want the speakers 1.3 m away. This would, however, place the speakers quite close to the listening position. Given a choice, I would still recommend placing the speakers approximately 2.3 m away. In this location, the speakers would be facing directly toward your feet, however, the dispersion of the UIW RCS IIs is quite broad and you will still have a natural sounding front soundstage at 1 m above the floor.


(If this were my system, I would rather have the speakers 2.3 m away – rather than 1.3 m away)"
 
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