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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello,


I'm hoping to get some help setting up my NHT speaker system. Several years ago I purchased a full NHT speaker system. These are the speakers:


2 x ST4 Front

1 x SC2 Center

1 x SW10 MKII Sub

2 x SuperOne Surround


I have gone over the manuals for all of these speakers but still have a few questions because I don't understand some of the settings/options. The room is about 18x15 feet. I am using a Denon 1912 AVR.


I have the amp set to Bi-Amp with the front amp driving the bottom connections on the ST4's and the surr back amp driving the top connections. I have read several articles have said "bi-amp/bi-wiring" with just an AVR makes no difference. I had the extra wire and figured I would give it a shot. What I am confused about is setting the speakers to Large or Small. Most articles say small, even this one by Audyssey:

http://www.audyssey.com/blog/2009/05/small-vs-large


But everytime I run the auto-setup, it sets the fronts to large. I run the test from 5 listening positions hoping to get an accurate config. I'm ok with large since I have large speakers and would sure like to use the whole speaker. Is there a recommended config for using large with the 1912? If I manually set it to small after the auto-setup, should I remove the "bi-amp/bi-wiring" and put the jumpers back on? Would the bottom speakers even be used if the fronts are set to small?


The sub is currently located along the seating wall which is opposite of the ST4's. There wasn't room to locate it on the same wall as the ST4's. Since it is on the opposite wall, would it be better to have the phase at 0 or 180? Would it be better to face the subwoofer/port at the wall or out into the room? What would be the ideal setting (-3db, 0 or +3db) based on the location and firing position? I seem to notice the ST4's bass much more than the SW10, the volume on it is currently at 50%, could you recommend a volume? The 1912, sets the sub at -12 if I turn the sub's volume up over 50%. The sub is connected using the LFE port.


Lastly, what crossover settings should I have set? After using the auto-setup, they are set at:


Front: 40

Center: 80

Surround: 40

Bass setting: LPF for LFE: 120


I can't imagine this being ideal so I was hoping for some guidance. I don't know much about home audio. I would think there is a sweet spot since all of these speakers are from the same product family.


Here is a picture of the speakers specifications.

AnyC00267.JPG 285k .JPG file


Thanks in advance and I apologize if I posted this in the wrong subforum.



Frank
 

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The settings for the front and center seem OK, but the surrounds should probably be set for 80 Hz


They probably don't go too much below that anyway.


If you are going to operate the front speakers down to below 40 hz (they are rated to go down well below 40), the subwoofer should be set to only operate from 40 hz and below. It doesn't matter if the receiver sends higher frequencies to the sub, because you will control the subwoofer with controls ON the subwoofer.


Set the LPF knob of the SW10 to its lowest setting, which is 40 Hz, and then adjust its volume to the setting that blends best with the main speakers. The setting required will depend on the sensitivity of the main speakers. There is no "right" setting for the sub volume except what sounds best, but often it is between 60% and 80%.


It will mess up the clarity of the bass to have the subwoofer operating any higher than 40 Hz.


Let the front speakers do what they can do, which is quite a lot, and only use the subwoofer BELOW their frequency range.


Many things you listen to may not have much content that is low enough for the sub to reproduce. Remember, its only function is to reproduce the very lowest frequencies that are too low for the main speakers.


Large drums are a good test to see if the mains and sub are working well together.


You don't want the subwoofer facing the wall or in a corner.


You can experiment with various distances from the wall and see what works best.
 

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I would suggest starting here:
http://www.willowville.net/ht/Audyssey%20Setup%20Guide.pdf
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=159948


Audyssey is not setting your speakers to "large" your receiver is. You should be using small since you have a subwoofer. Also 40hz is not really where Audyssey is recommending you set your crossover for your mains, Audyssey is effectively reporting where your speakers rolloff. I would start in the 60-80hz range for your mains (I would set the surrounds at 80hz) and go with what you like after you experiment. THX recommends 80hz, but I have found this to just be a starting point. Utilizing your subwoofer will effectively give your speakers and receiver more headroom for the frequencies above the crossover point. Your sub specs are:

33 Hz - 180 Hz +/- 3 dB


LPF of LFE should be 120hz.


You are using your receiver for bass management:
http://www.audioholics.com/tweaks/get-good-bass/bass-management-basics-2013-settings-made-simple

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=95817


Those articles answer pretty much all your questions and explain how to properly configure and tune your subwoofer and speakers.


I would read over them and feel free to ask any other questions you don't understand.


The advice above is, quite frankly, not good and the person does not understand Audyssey and bass management.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thanks for getting back to me.


I appreciate the recommendation on the surround speakers. I'll adjust them to 80Hz! Just so I understand though, the Surround speakers have a range of 57Hz - 25kHz. Would 60Hz be acceptable? That is only a guess because from looking at several posts, it seems the crossover settings are chosen by just rounding the low frequency up. People with 63Hz speakers were placing them at 70Hz, 87Hz speakers at 90Hz.


I am using the LFE output from the AVR to the sub. It was my understanding that using LFE would bypass the low pass filter allowing the AVR to control. Should I use a RCA splitter to the Line Input? Then I could use the Low Pass Filter to control the sub's frequencies. Most of the recommendations are to use LFE when available.


Currently the sub is located in a corner but facing outward into the room. It is about a foot away from the back and side wall and about 10 feet from the wall it is facing. The Boundary switch is set to 0 right now. Is that the correct setting for it's placement? I think -3db is more accurate since there are three boundaries. The floor and two walls. I found this document:

http://eaw.com/docs/6_Technical_Information/StudyHall_and_TechNotes/Subwoofers.pdf


Thanks again,


Frank
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks again for the replies. I think i'm getting a better understanding of this. I reviewed the attached links, thanks for posting those. I still have a few questions.


1) Bi-Wiring - I have read that bi-wiring makes no difference but the cables were there and I figured what the heck. If it does nothing for sound quality, does it have a negative effect or just no positive effect? I asking because it is already wired so would I need to change it? If I do need to change it, then would I also put the metal jumpers back on the speakers?


2) Front Large or Small - I get that by setting the front speakers to small, any frequencies below the crossover value are sent to the Sub. So if they are set to large but the front crossover is set to 60Hz, doesn't the frequencies lower than that still go to the Sub? I'm pretty sure on my receiver whether they are set to large or small, I can configure an overall crossover value or specific for Front, Center and Surround. I guess what I am asking is when the Denon asks Large or Small, isn't that just a simple way of configuring the crossover vs the advanced setting of specifying the actually crossover frequency.


3) LFE vs LFE + Main - This setting is disabled when the front speakers are set to Small. If they are set to Large, and I set this to LFE, wouldn't this also allow the sub to produce all the lower frequencies? I am probably just confused by it seems like there is more than one way to accomplish the same goal.


4) Crossover - Most articles recommend about 10-15Hz above the lowest frequency that the speaker can produce. My speakers are:


Front - 39Hz (That is the upper, not the 8" woofer)

Center - 73Hz

Surround 85Hz


Based on that and what most recommend and the posts here, I was thinking about starting with 60Hz for the front, 90 for the center and 100 for the surround. Thoughts?


Thanks again for all the help with this. I appreciate the time and patience!



Frank
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiveass  /t/1469447/denon-1912-and-nht-super-series-speaker-setup#post_23233843


Thanks again for the replies. I think i'm getting a better understanding of this. I reviewed the attached links, thanks for posting those. I still have a few questions.


1) Bi-Wiring - I have read that bi-wiring makes no difference but the cables were there and I figured what the heck. If it does nothing for sound quality, does it have a negative effect or just no positive effect? I asking because it is already wired so would I need to change it? If I do need to change it, then would I also put the metal jumpers back on the speakers?

If you don't notice any difference then, as wrong answer mentioned, you are losing channels on your receiver. If you need them, unhook the biwire and puts things back to the original state.
Quote:
2) Front Large or Small - I get that by setting the front speakers to small, any frequencies below the crossover value are sent to the Sub. So if they are set to large but the front crossover is set to 60Hz, doesn't the frequencies lower than that still go to the Sub? I'm pretty sure on my receiver whether they are set to large or small, I can configure an overall crossover value or specific for Front, Center and Surround. I guess what I am asking is when the Denon asks Large or Small, isn't that just a simple way of configuring the crossover vs the advanced setting of specifying the actually crossover frequency.

When you set the speakers to large you are effectively overriding bass management and you lost all the subwoofer filters that Audyssey MultiEQ offers. In your case, you really should be using small since you have a subwoofer that can play frequencies lower than your mains.
Quote:
3) LFE vs LFE + Main - This setting is disabled when the front speakers are set to Small. If they are set to Large, and I set this to LFE, wouldn't this also allow the sub to produce all the lower frequencies? I am probably just confused by it seems like there is more than one way to accomplish the same goal.

If you set your speakers to large and use this setting you are telling the receiver to send bass to both the mains and the subwoofer simultaneously. My experience with this is that it does not sound very good and causes more issues than it solves. I am also pretty sure Audyssey subwoofer filters do not apply and you miss out there.
Quote:
4) Crossover - Most articles recommend about 10-15Hz above the lowest frequency that the speaker can produce. My speakers are:


Front - 39Hz (That is the upper, not the 8" woofer)

Center - 73Hz

Surround 85Hz


Based on that and what most recommend and the posts here, I was thinking about starting with 60Hz for the front, 90 for the center and 100 for the surround. Thoughts?


Thanks again for all the help with this. I appreciate the time and patience!

Again, you really cannot go off the stated specs by the manufacturer. They are not always accurate and they are certainly not taken in your own room
That said, your final numbers seem like a good starting place. You could also try 80hz for everything based on what Audyssey gave you earlier. Set all speakers to small. Remember, with Audyssey you can always adjust the crossover higher after Audyssey runs (but never lower). So you could start with 80hz for all of them and see how you like it and then adjust as you like. This is one of those preference things
With this NHT main left and right, they might do well at 60hz. Compare it to 80hz and slowly lower the crossover until you find your sweetspot. You subwoofer is not bad, but it is probably your weak link in your setup. If you watch lots of movies, there are some stronger options out there in the $499 shipped range and slightly higher.


Also remember if you move the speakers and sub at all, you need to remeasure with Audyssey. Room is so key to all of this. Rooms can make a good speaker sound bad, and a bad speaker sound good. So Audyssey, with a combination of proper speaker positioning, proper seating, and proper room treatments can make a huge difference. If you really want to see how your room is interacting you can buy a $90 USB microphone and use a free room measurement software like REW to really understand what is going on in your room.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks for breaking that down Ack_bk!


I followed the Audyssey setup you linked. Got the sub volume to a spot where Audyssey set the level -/+ 3db. Then ran Audyssey from all 6 locations but stayed within the front speakers. Audyssey set the fronts to large but I switched them to small. Then changed LFE + Main to LFE. Audyssey set my center at 90hz. The doc said never go below that, The rear's were at 60Hz. I manually set the front's to 60Hz as well. So right now it is at:


Front 60

Center 90

Rear 60


It sounded pretty good last night. I appreciate the recommendations. Based on those settings, do you think that is a good place or would you change any of those? I was surprised that the center was 90 but I read not to ever lower it below what Audyssey detects for the speaker. The rears seem low compared to what I see most set theirs at. Now that I have gotten the Audyssey measurements stored, I can play with the crossover tonight and possibly fine tune it.


What is your opinion on the dynamic volume? Dynamic EQ is on but I didn't turn Dynamic Volume on. I live alone so I am not worried about volume spikes but if the feature provides better overall quality, then I would be more interested.


As for the bi-wiring, I don't have extra speakers to use those two channels and had the extra wire so that is why I did it. I don't have any plans of adding any additional speakers either so I just figured, what the heck. Give it a go. Would I benefit at all by removing the bi-wiring or is it pretty much the same whether it is single or bi-wired? Thanks,


Frank
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiveass  /t/1469447/denon-1912-and-nht-super-series-speaker-setup#post_23236192


Thanks for breaking that down Ack_bk!


I followed the Audyssey setup you linked. Got the sub volume to a spot where Audyssey set the level -/+ 3db. Then ran Audyssey from all 6 locations but stayed within the front speakers. Audyssey set the fronts to large but I switched them to small. Then changed LFE + Main to LFE. Audyssey set my center at 90hz. The doc said never go below that, The rear's were at 60Hz. I manually set the front's to 60Hz as well. So right now it is at:


Front 60

Center 90

Rear 60


It sounded pretty good last night. I appreciate the recommendations. Based on those settings, do you think that is a good place or would you change any of those? I was surprised that the center was 90 but I read not to ever lower it below what Audyssey detects for the speaker. The rears seem low compared to what I see most set theirs at. Now that I have gotten the Audyssey measurements stored, I can play with the crossover tonight and possibly fine tune it.


What is your opinion on the dynamic volume? Dynamic EQ is on but I didn't turn Dynamic Volume on. I live alone so I am not worried about volume spikes but if the feature provides better overall quality, then I would be more interested.


As for the bi-wiring, I don't have extra speakers to use those two channels and had the extra wire so that is why I did it. I don't have any plans of adding any additional speakers either so I just figured, what the heck. Give it a go. Would I benefit at all by removing the bi-wiring or is it pretty much the same whether it is single or bi-wired? Thanks,


Frank

Good deal. That guide is a lifesaver
It really just comes down to preference now. Adjusting to 80hz and comparing to 60hz to see what you like best. I personally don't like Dynamic Volume and disable it, again, you can turn it on and off and see what you prefer. If you don't need the extra channels you might was well leave them bi-wired.


The next thing to do is play around with speaker and sub placement. Do you have your left and right speakers slightly toed in today? Getting your tweeter as close to ear level as possible on the center channel is also key, and sometimes you may have to try aiming the speaker slightly to get the tweeter firing as close to ear level as possible. You would be surprised at how moving your speaker just a little (toeing them in) can change the sound at the listening position. Just remember whenever you move speakers or your sub, you need to re-run Audyssey and then make all your post adjustments.


Now you just need a sub that can hit in the 20hz and below region with authority



Cheers!
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
The front's are toed in slightly. I tried to position all the speakers according to the diagrams floating around by dolby and thx. Yeah I guess I should start shopping a new sub. It was strange, I had to turn the sub down to about 30% volume to get the Audyssey level -/+ 3db of 0. Around 30% volume was -0.5.
 
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