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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
- I'm looking real hard at what I can get in the $600 range, and largely due to RSnake and his pretty thorough rundown of why he chose the Denon 2310, plus countless hours of scouring this forum and the web in general, I'm very strongly leaning towards following in RSnake's footsteps. I can get a refurb 2310 that falls in my price range, where any new unit is simply out of the question.

- But my question is, should I hold out for a couple of months for the VSX-1020? I'm replacing a sixteen year old VSX-D1S and I've been very happy with its performance over the years. About twelve years ago I got an outboard AC-3 processor for it, and since it has pre-outs across the board it was simple to put in the loop. It still works, *most* of the time.


- The thing that tweaks me hardest about the Pioneer is given by the specs on the 1019, since I can't find a manual for the non-existent 1020. That is this: it claims to deliver 90w to 7 channels, but it only draws 350w from the mains. Since 7x90=630, it either can't deliver full wattage to all channels, or it's violating some laws of physics that will net Pioneer trillions of dollars. (grin) Even taking RMS vs VA into account, these numbers just don't add up. I have little recourse but to presume the 1020 will suffer a similar fate where power consumption and delivery are concerned, which will be equally vexing.

- The Denon, on the other hand, is rated at 105w x7, and draws 720w from the mains. While that's still a touch shy, it's "close enough for gov't work".

- The D1S, by comparison, consumes a whopping 1100 watts to deliver mere 410 in an oddball mix of wattages to various speakers. It's a wonder I can't grill meat on this thing, but while it gets warm it doesn't seem near hot enough to even keep coffee hot, like the legendary Onkyo line I've read so much about. I haven't put a kill-a-watt on it, but I suspect that 1100 is max, and it normally uses considerably less. 600-odd I'd guess based on heat dissipated.


- The Denon 2310 is only in my price range on a refurb, and that doesn't make me the happiest camper, either. If it failed once and needed to be fixed, even if it's "working like new", what's to say it's not statistically more likely to fail a second time than a new one? I'm not a gambler by nature, but with the half-decent warranty I've found that may be mitigated, depending largely on how well that warranty is executed if it should be required. That bothers me as well, since Denon itself only does 90 days on refurbs, so anything beyond that is at the seller's expense and discretion.


- I could get a Denon 890 instead, but the price difference I've seen on refurbs over a 2310 is pretty slight. Either one actually works for me, though, so where I say "2310" feel free to substitute "890". I don't need the RS232 or second zone remote at all.


- I could get a new Denon 1910 instead, but I'd sorta like to keep my phono. Is that worth going refurb to keep? Dunno. But 15w x7 could be in addition to phono. (grin) This of course dings the Pioneer, which lacks phono, but it *potentially* has the added power, and it's more "future proof".


- Lastly, I *could* scrimp and belt-tighten and likely come up with enough for a new 890, then the refurb issue would be sidestepped. BUT I do sort of need a center channel speaker. The old D1S actually has *two* posts for center channel, so I've been using a pair of Bose 301 as "the center channel". None of the current crop of units has but one center channel output, so it's probably time to bite the bullet and get a bona-fide one. That scrimp & tighten would pretty much mean I'd toss the center channel speaker until some unknown future date.


- My current setup is an Epson 8500UB projector, a pair of "Omni Audio" mini towers, four Bose 301, and the "sub" part of an "Omni Audio" sub-sat. While the OA speakers aren't anything I've heard of, they sound pretty good. The towers are weak as all get-out on the low end, but the "sub" part that's faking a subwoofer fills that in quite nicely for a well balanced sound. The 301's are weak on bass at the low end, but have super-crisp mid/high, and when you kick 'em up (like watching a movie) the low end springs to life. This system sounds fuller and richer than a brand-new Bose lifestyle turnkey setup, much the new Bose owner's chagrin. I'd be keeping this oddment of speakers, possibly getting a real center channel speaker, and replacing the D1S with whatever. The towers would stay as the mains, the four 301s would be surround, the fake subwoofer would stay, and the dreamed-of center channel would round out the 7.1 complement.


- Since the D1S doesn't do HDMI, the projector is my video switcher right now. I used to route everything to the D1S and let it do the work, and I'll be delighted to have that capability again, not to mention significantly shorter cable runs.


- AV sources: BD player, non-HD satellite (s-video w/ toslink audio), computer (has HDMI out). If TV ever becomes important enough to me I'll move up to HD. Until then the upscaling on the projector is nothing short of amazing. If the replacement AV receiver does half as well I'll be happy with it, otherwise I'll simply keep the s-video feed direct to the projector until I go HD there.


- Audio sources: phono, cassette, CD changer. Cassette is completely optional. CD changer is not. Phono is a "really nice to keep", but I suppose there are alternatives to get it patched in to a normal audio input, if that's the only option.


- Room is a very theatre-unfriendly weirdo trianglur-ish space that's open to the second floor on one side. I'm not the happiest with it, but it is literally the only place in the house with A) sufficient light control and B) space to put anything even approximating a home theatre. I've high hopes for this Audyssey thing being able to work with it. (wide grin)


- Ach. Always one more paragraph. Krikey. I'll use this mainly for movies, currently on DVD, though I imagine increasingly on BD. Music is currently second seat, but that's partially because the D1S only works some of the time. The less I use it, the better it works, so I let it sit as much as possible to have it available to watch movies. If I had sound that worked all the time I might listen to music more. Regardless, from a sound standpoint, movies are more important to me than music.


Thank you all in advance for your time and input...
 

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Might want to reconsider going with the 2310 over both the 1910 or the 890 (as it's the only one of the 3 that has a RS-232 jack to install the current firmware update) there mate as your Sony BDP will have a problem bitstreaming to Denon AVRs unless the current firmware update has been installed which isn't likely unless it's been mfr'd in the last couple months (either that or just wait for a 2011 HDMI 1.4 model coming out in May).


Also, depending on where you can purchase from, Dakmart offers 1 year warranties on refurbished Denon AVRs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
- Thanks, jdsmoothie. You must've read my stuff over the BD Player area. (wink) Since I do indeed have a Sony BDP that firmware upgrade would be important.


- Apologies for not describing equipment better. In my foolishness I didn't think it relevant:


: Sony BDP-N460 Blue-ray

: ATI HD3300 integrated video
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnorok /forum/post/18302471


- Now that names have been mentioned (grin), DakMart was the very place I was looking to get a 2310 from. Are they reputable?

Yes, very reputable and folks are generally pleased with refurb purchases made from them. Not to mention they have a good rating at resellerratings.com . And as I said, they offer a 1 year warranty vice the 90 day warranty at eCost.
 

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Ragno -- you have pricing options on a new Denon 2310 that could be close to your price range (or under it)....online coupon codes abound...and with reputable online dealers.. Electronics-expo is one option....current coupon is available for ~30% off retail.


And for Directv, you have options there, too....check your private message for additional info.


Good luck!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by googlegod /forum/post/18304143


Dakmart may give a longer warranty but they sell the same unit at a much higher price, but its still the same refurbished duds from denon, same very used looking crap just a different retailer, denon lists them on there as a refurb outlet along with ecost which sells the same avr units at a mucher lower price. One thing which is really scary is that denons factory produce so many duds that there always around. I would not spend 300 or more dollars on a used looking dud that may not work or work 100%. Spend alittle more and get the 2 year factory warranty, you just may need a firmware update, whats that going to cost you. If you read the denon threads theres is a better than average chance you will need some kind of service and denon does not bend the rules they have written. Good luck with that

Jeez ... give it a rest will you. You're like a one man band against refurbs simply because you (or your friend) apparently had a bad experience. Denon produces no more "duds" then any other mfr, (
 

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I will have to chime in here.


There is an epidemic problem. They have had numerous issues with the 3310's. I have purchsed three from various etailers and determined that the Quality is a out of control, since all of them were defective. When you pull inventory from different lots and still have repeated problems, I become more than concerned.


As far as return rates, they are in the 5% range. Now, bear in mind that the end-user, (consumers) are paying for these mistakes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie /forum/post/18304199


Jeez ... give it a rest will you. You're like a one man band against refurbs simply because you (or your friend) apparently had a bad experience. Denon produces no more "duds" then any other mfr, (
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnorok /forum/post/18301745


- The thing that tweaks me hardest about the Pioneer is given by the specs on the 1019, since I can't find a manual for the non-existent 1020.
Manual (PDF) for the Pioneer 1020-K. Continuous output of 80W per the manual.


I was about to get the Denon 2310 (albeit new) a few months ago when I read more on the issues with lag and video games. Given that Pioneer models tend to leave HDMI signals untouched it doesn't seem like lag should be an issue with the 1020K (the 1120 might be a different story however).
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCTools /forum/post/18304950


There is an epidemic problem. They have had numerous issues with the 3310's. I have purchsed three from various etailers and determined that the Quality is a out of control, since all of them were defective. When you pull inventory from different lots and still have repeated problems, I become more than concerned.

Then please .. please ... please ..as we suggested in the 3310 ... move on to another mfr and so you don't have to complain anymore.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnla /forum/post/18308567


Actually, Dakmart has a less than stellar reputation.

Actually .... looks to me like most of the complaints were resolved and many have to do with items not being in stock (big deal). We've had many folks over the years say they ordered from Dakmart and have been very pleased. Not too mention, if they were truly that bad, Denon would hardly keep them as an authorized e-tailer. Clearly, it's up to each buyer to do their own research to determine if the savings is worth going refurb or if it's better to spend a little more for new stock.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
- Go your PM SteveK2 but your inbox is full. (grin) Thanks for the info! RSnake made an excellent suggestion as well. Between the two of you and I think I'm set on a new one.

- As it turns out The Boss authorized the full price for purchase, so the fact I can get it for less is now icing on the cake.


- As for refurbs, it's interesting but no longer relevant, as new is within my grasp one way or the other. It's not that I don't appreciate opposing views, *far* from it. I asked for opinions and I'm happy to have them. But the banter is a bit off-topic to my mission. (grin)


- Thanks doormat for the link!! It looks like the Pioneer 1020 is in fact rated at 80w continuous, so for 7 channels that would be 420w continuous delivery, yet the manual says it only consumes 245w from the mains. This discrepancy is lower than I noted for the 1019, but still larger than I feel comfortable with. I would be *delighted* if someone in the know could explain how this unit delivers 420w continuous while consuming 245w of power, before I finisih research on the Denon.

- I've read about Onkyo having serious lag, but not Denon. I don't do video games, anyway, so if there is lag and doesn't affect movies then it's a non-issue for me. Thanks for pointing it out, though, because I'll poke around on that more specifically.


- Since PCTools mentions QC issues, I'm going to do some extensive research on the 2310's QC on the premise that stereos are like cars - one model of a given make could be a total lemon while another model of the same make could have stellar reliability. Thanks for pointing that out PCTools!


- Unless my research into the 2130 reveals something woogly I'm likely going to go with a Denon 2310. I know new units are released next month for a lot of manufacturers, but I presume stereos are like computers - if you keep waiting for the best price and features you will in essence wait forever. I'm tired of wondering if the sound will cut out in the middle of a movie again, and I can get what I want at my price. See no reason to wait.


- MANY thanks to all for their input. I couldn't have decided without you!!


EDIT:


- On QC, I found zero hits using numerous searches that included the 2310 or 2310CI. Found *lots* of hits for Onkyo, though.


- On lag I found one hit, and several hits that were repackaging that one. In essense the overlay menu appears to interfere with analog video conversion to HDMI; if one turns that off there is no lag. Since I have only one analog source, and that one may be run directly to the projector (as it is now), and if I should decide to game I'll get a console with HDMI, I feel this will be non-issue.


- So the Denon 2310 is still the selection. Time to work on what SteveK2 & RSnake have suggested, looks like.


RE-EDIT:


- One Denon 2310CI is inbound from Electronics Exp as I type. Thanks SteveK2, it worked!!


Thanks again, everyone!
 

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Thanks to all of the excellent input on this site, I also selected a Denon 2310CI (at a good price
!).

HDMI 1.4 receivers (3D, I believe) are coming, but I don't intend to wait and upgrade my 2006 Plasma or my blu ray player just for 3D. I'm not sure I would want to use 3D on a regular basis.

I was originally interested in the 1910 and also almost decided to get the new Panasonic blu ray player ($179 list price, faster loading than prior Panasonics, has Netflix streaming) but from the information on this site decided that better 480i processing was obtainable by combining the Oppo BDP 80 (no Netflix, also fast loading) with its "source direct" option with the 2010 ABT chip in the 2310CI. This is the same chip used in the more expensive Oppo BDP 83 which is highly regarded. Supposedly, some functions of the 2010 ABT chip are disabled in the 2310CI, but the major function that is disabled is called PreP. What that function does is take possibly poorly rendered 480p signals from upconverted 480i DVD material, re-interlace them, then do a better job of generating a 480p (or higher) signal than the generic chip in the blu ray player did. If that function is disabled in the 2310CI, then the good job that the 2010 chip can do is rendered moot by most blu ray players, which cannot output 480i over HDMI, at least as an automatic setting. Some receivers (such as Pioneer, apparently, which otherwise was another brand high on my list) also will never touch an HDMI signal, regardless of what chip they have.

Since the Oppo BDP 80 can output source direct, (IE output the native 480i resolution over HDMI), the better chip in the 2310CI can work on the signal regardless of whether or not PreP is disabled. This allows getting the $290 list price BDP 80 instead of the $499 list price BDP 83 and getting the same DVD performance. At least that is my understanding!
 

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I agree that is likely based on the Anchor Bay Technologies web site (see the Semiconductor Products comparison chart) and I think the 1910 is also a good choice. The comparison chart implies 1080i de-interlace is better with the chip in the 2310CI, but not 480i de-interlace, which will be good with both receivers.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie /forum/post/18308785


Actually .... looks to me like most of the complaints were resolved and many have to do with items not being in stock (big deal). We've had many folks over the years say they ordered from Dakmart and have been very pleased. Not too mention, if they were truly that bad, Denon would hardly keep them as an authorized e-tailer. Clearly, it's up to each buyer to do their own research to determine if the savings is worth going refurb or if it's better to spend a little more for new stock.

And I still see people having problems with them, so nothing has really changed in that regard. As for you saying it can't be, because Denon would be dropping them if there was any amount of customer discontent, that a joke, that won't happen as long as they are able to push a lot of refurbs out the door for Denon.
 

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No love for the new Onkyo 608... The onkyos do run hot... go to Best buy & put your hands on every receiver... you'll know you're on an onkyo!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tunaman4u2 /forum/post/18337706


No love for the new Onkyo 608... The onkyos do run hot... go to Best buy & put your hands on every receiver... you'll know you're on an onkyo!

Open space is needed and maybe a small pc fan and you should be ok. All the BBs near me jam these units into a cubby hole, not to smart. Do they have the 608 on display ???
 
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