[CSF]

I went to Magnolia Hifi to see the new Denon 3910 and was surprised at how poor the picture quality looked. I've heard so much positive feedback on this unit so I assume that it must be a setup issue. However, the sales rep and I were unable to figure it out.


The 3910 was first hooked up to a Samsung LCD panel with native 1080i resolution. The connection was made via HDMI and the player output was set to 1080i. We watched "Lord of the Rings" and selected chapters with plenty of dark scenes. In the shadows, the gradient from light to dark wasn't smooth. Instead, it's made up of a large block of squares. The decrease from dark to light was not continuous but instead, it occured in discrete levels. I'm not sure if this is what they refer to as macroblocking or not. The noise is definitely not the expected film grain. We then tried the same DVD on a 3910 hooked up to two other DLP displays, also via HDMI, but the problem was still there. We also tried changing the output resolution of the 3910 to 480p as well as 720p but it made no difference. We then tried "Toy Story" and it obviously looked great. We didn't have a chance to hook up the player via component so I wasn't able to rule out the connection as a possible issue. I also wanted to try the 3910 on a plasma but I didn't have time. I also wanted to try to same DVD on a different DVD player driving the same display but again, I didn't have enough time.


I've seen the LOTR DVD many times on many different setups and it has never looked this bad. I refuse to believe that the 3910 can produce such a crappy image so it must be a setup problem. Does anyone have any ideas? If somebody already has a 3910 and a copy of LOTR, can you please let me know if you see the same issue? Thanks.

 

[Q of BanditZ]

I am really starting to feel sorry for Denon with all these problem threads we seem to get.


Let me throw some bones out and see what's what.


1.) The TV's could have been poorly calibrated.


2.) The default settings on the 3910, from what I've read, sometimes need to have the black level IRE reset.


3.) Was this all direct HDMI - HDMI? I know that some players are having black crush issues with HDMI DVI


4.) Could the TVs and the player be competing against each other and creating noise since the Denon was trying to upscale and those TV's upscale at the same time? This could create video noise possibly...

 

[sbddvm]

I believe the Denon's have a big problem. Maybe this is why DenonJeff isn't posting any more. He knew he was going to have to answer a lot of questions. Guess he had caught enough flack from the 5900.

 

[Mr. Biggles]

Quote:

Originally posted by sbddvm I believe the Denon's have a big problem.

Utter nonsense.


The issue could be a million things (well maybe not a million).


One thing that comes to my mind right away is that he's evaluating dark scenes on low contrast capable display devices set up in a store environment with bright lights and the sets probably in 'torch' mode.

 

[Kris Deering]

Well let's just look at the obvious:


There is no LCD monitor at Magnolia with a native 1080i resolution, doesn't exist. So now you are bypassing the Denon scaling and having this Samsung do the de-interlacing and scaling, which is probably a bad idea. If by the off chance this is the new Samsung 1080P LCD flat panel, which I don't even think is one the market yet, then I know you weren't seeing the DVD player because that display has LOTS of issues inherent in it from the scaling.


You also talk about black level but that is one of the weakest features of LCD, and unless that display was calibrated with the utmost care, black evaluation is worthless. Plus we don't know if the DVI black level was set correctly, or how much the 8-bit processing in the display plays into the contouring.


This is why evaluation using the proper gear is essential. Hooking up a DVD player to random displays in a video store doesn't tell you anything in my opinion and certainly wouldn't sway my purchasing decisions.

 

[Q of BanditZ]

Couldn't have said it better, Kris.


I cringe when I hear people making decisions because of "how it looked in the store." 9/10 times, those clowns wouldn't know how to turn a TV on let alone calibrate it worth a damn. Either that, or they're too tired, rushed, and busy to be bothered. Certainly understandable, but unforuneately, it leads to results like what we have here in this thread.


Especially if you go into a place like a Best Buy or Circuit City. I've been amazed and horrified in the worst way possible with how they treat that equipment in there. Sure as hell, you're about as far away from accuracy as can be.


I can't tell you how many times I've been in stores and they have this nice, high rez connected with RCA or S-Video cables. Give me a break! And that's just the least of it...

 

[Tinker]

Kris...


well said

 

[Steve Goff]

The new Samsung 46-inch LCD, the LT-P468W 46, is a native 1920x1080, so maybe Magnolia has one of those, though it seems doubtful. But that model also gets pretty bad marks for showing detail in dark areas, enough so that the problem was mentioned in this week's ExtremeTech review. The gradients could also be a problem with the LCD. I've not seen either problem with my 3910.

 

[FreeflyKC]

Quote:

Originally posted by CSF ...must be a setup issue.

Agreed.
Quote:

...the sales rep and I were unable to figure it out.

That I believe.
Quote:

If somebody already has a 3910 and a copy of LOTR, can you please let me know if you see the same issue? Thanks.

3910->HDMI->XBR960. No issues whatsoever.

 

[Dave Vaughn]

Not to start a flame war...but CSF has 3 damn posts!!! Sounds like a plant to me to do some Denon Bashing!


Dave

 

[Keenan]

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave Vaughn Not to start a flame war...but CSF has 3 damn posts!!! Sounds like a plant to me to do some Denon Bashing! Dave

Hey, when is your "you know" going to be done?


Jim

 

[joerod]

I think the PROBLEM is in the first sentence or two. The SALES REP!!!

 

[Kris Deering]

I looked at the new 1080P Samsung at CEDIA. They had true HD material going to it along side two of their 720P panels. The scaling artifacts were horrific to say the least. This is what scares me about the native 1080P displays that have been coming out. With the lack of real 1080P material and dismall support for conversion to 1080P, I would almost avoid it at this point.

 

[AcuraCL]

Not to mention, that people will be buying them then coming here complaining how bad SD looks on them ....


*sigh*

 

[Jeff Lemke]

Here a comment to help balance the Denon remarks:



I LOVE MY DENON 2910!!!!




the 3910 has to awesome.


Jeff

 

[Q of BanditZ]

Quote:

Originally posted by Kris Deering I looked at the new 1080P Samsung at CEDIA. They had true HD material going to it along side two of their 720P panels. The scaling artifacts were horrific to say the least. This is what scares me about the native 1080P displays that have been coming out. With the lack of real 1080P material and dismall support for conversion to 1080P, I would almost avoid it at this point.

Another great lesson and examples about the woes of early adopting. I don't see any point myself in owning a medium that has little to no support. I think you're exactly right Kris.


This again makes me thing of what's going to happen when BluRay and HD-DVD first hit.


There isn't going to be a lot of material for 1080p for YEARS. Look at where SACD and DVD-A are right now and how long they've been out.


That's how I think things are generally going to unfold with all of this as well. Same kind of idea, imho.

 

[Tolstoi]

I needed to replace an old Toshiba DVD Player and decided to use that opportunity to introduce SACD in my stereo system. I am an Audiophile and own close to 1000 CDs and is a strong believer in pure stereo music. Therefore I ordered a 3910 to fill these two requirements.


In the meantime, I went to the biggest music store in my area (Archambault Music) to buy a couple of SACDs to be ready when my 3910 will show up next week. What a shock, I could not buy more than a few disks. I went on their online store to find out that there are only around 300 titles of SACD?!?


Even, if I finally get converted to SACD, I am far from replacing my CD collection and will keep my high-end CD Player/DAC combo for quite a while.


Benoit

 

[Furious]

The Denon's definitely do amplify contouring issues on lcd displays with poor video processing. I see this a fair bit on my 5900 with an LG LCD. Swapping players out reveals less of an issue, but it is still there, only not nearly as pronounced. As Kris notes the video processing of the display can be the culprit and is something that is often overlooked as we tend to rely on specs such as panel resolution or chipset/type as being representative of video quality when it's just a part of the overall equation.